Originally posted by KingD19
Sidious didn't control the Senate. He manipulated them with charisma, playing to their needs/wants and an endless amount of credits and resources to back up his claims and promises.And them not being telepaths isn't the point. It's the point that he froze hundreds of people in moments. For that scene to make sense, he had to freeze the entire mall including the parking lot.
I do not agree. If it was just manipulation through charisma then Mace would not have felt threaten to have Sidious go on trial.
I know the point you were making that is why I gave the example of the senate to should that it would not be easy to control a mind with that much control of the force. The Shaw example still comes into play. If it took that much effort for Xavier to control Shaw you can only imagine what it would take to control a Jedi's mind especially one who is powerful in the force.
Originally posted by KingD19
You can only assume he controlled the Senate. There is no proof he mentally coerced anyone.
There is no direct proof it was done only through the way you stated. Initially that may have been involved but at a certain point it is implied that Sidious is using the force in some way.
That is what I get from the quotes from Mace. He change his mind rather quickly during their fight. He didn't go and find evidence to support Sidious claim that he controlled the senate so I would say it was something he sense.
Mace Windu: In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you're under arrest, Chancellor.
Supreme Chancellor: Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?
Mace Windu: The senate will decide your fate.
Supreme Chancellor: [now speaking as Darth Sidious] I AM the senate!
Mace Windu: Not yet.
[the Chancellor/Darth Sidious rises slowly, and his lightsaber snaps to his hand from his sleeve]
Supreme Chancellor: It's treason, then...
[ignites his lightsaber and leaps over his desk to attack]
Mace Windu: [has Palpatine subdued] I'm going to put an end to this, once and for all!
Anakin Skywalker: You can't. He must stand trial.
Mace Windu: He has control of the senate and all the courts. He is too dangerous to be left alive!
Originally posted by Kotor3
The problem is clear, you can't read or only read what you want to. No Xavier DIDN'T mind control Jean in X-Men First Class.
It doesn't matter: he still did it. The capability is there.
The burden of proof is now on your to prove Xavier's powers increased, exponentially, from the 80s to the 2000s (he put the mind control stuff on Jean shortly after meeting her...in the 80s...which is shortly after the evens of First Class. 🙂 )
Just give it up, already. There's nothing you can say or do that will undo Xavier's feats. The worst case scenario, he can disable the minds of people equal to him or greater than him. At no point are any Jedi equal to any adult iteration of Xavier. 🙂
You've inappropriately assumed that he burden of proof is on me to prove that Xavier can mind control powerful telepaths. Not so. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Jedi are anywhere close to the abilities of any adult version of Xavier before we even begin entertaining the notion that Xavier cannot mind control the Jedi. 😉
Originally posted by dadudemon
It doesn't matter: he still did it. The capability is there.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The burden of proof is now on your to prove Xavier's powers increased, exponentially, from the 80s to the 2000s (he put the mind control stuff on Jean shortly after meeting her...in the 80s...which is shortly after the evens of First Class. 🙂 )
Originally posted by dadudemon
Just give it up, already. There's nothing you can say or do that will undo Xavier's feats. The worst case scenario, he can disable the minds of people equal to him or greater than him. At no point are any Jedi equal to any adult iteration of Xavier. 🙂
Originally posted by dadudemon
You've inappropriately assumed that he burden of proof is on me to prove that Xavier can mind control powerful telepaths. Not so. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Jedi are anywhere close to the abilities of any adult version of Xavier before we even begin entertaining the notion that Xavier cannot mind control the Jedi. 😉
I don’t have to prove statements I have not made. I do not see Young Xavier controlling all the Jedi, especially Yoda like it would be nothing. The first time he confronted Emma Frost she blocked him.
You don’t agree fine. Your disagreement doesn’t make my claim baseless.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes it does matter, because it is not a feat of young Xavier.
Ummm...yeah it is. 😐
Go back and read my posts.
Originally posted by Kotor3
His mastery of his powers did. That we know for sure. If you doubt that then watch the movies again.
Because you thought you needed to make this point, you didn't understand my points.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Who is trying to undo his feats or claiming Jedi are equal? You have examples of Jedi being controlled by telepaths?
Do you have examples of any Jedi as powerful as Emma Frost resisting someone as powerful Xavier and then failing?
Also, yes, Luke could not prevent Vader from invading his mind and pulling the knowledge the Leia is his sister. 🙂
Game. Set. Match!!!!
😆 😆
Additionally, their telepathic abilities work in completely different pathways. You seem to keep forgetting that. You haven't been paying attention to my posts. I think it is time for me to start quoting myself at you. 🙂
Originally posted by Kotor3
I don’t have to prove statements I have not made. I do not see Young Xavier controlling all the Jedi, especially Yoda like it would be nothing. The first time he confronted Emma Frost she blocked him.
Originally posted by Kotor3
Your disagreement doesn’t make my claim baseless.
It does. There is nothing even remotely close to Xavier in that universe: old or young. You yourself indirectly admit that Xavier can control other telepaths. I cited evidence that young Xavier can control telepathic minds more powerful than even his. You ignored it. I also pointed out that Xavier's telepathy works in an entirely different pathway than a Jedi's. I also cited an example of one force user over-powering the mind of another force user.
Lastly, I pointed out that no one even close to Xavier exists in the Star Wars universe: old or young Xavier.
Face it, every last front you've presented, I have destroyed you.
So, now, back to my original question:
The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Jedi are anywhere close to the abilities of any adult version of Xavier before we even begin entertaining the notion that Xavier cannot mind control the Jedi. Please post your proof before you continue this portion of the conversation. If you cannot post proof, then we stick with the onscreen feats that have both an old and young Xavier controlling telepaths that are more powerful than any Jedi, by far.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Ummm...yeah it is. 😐Go back and read my posts.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Do you have examples of any Jedi as powerful as Emma Frost resisting someone as powerful Xavier and then failing?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, yes, Luke could not prevent Vader from invading his mind and pulling the knowledge the Leia is his sister. 🙂Game. Set. Match!!!!
😆 😆
Yes Luke and Vader two people who are not in this thread. Two people who had a connection that even Sidious himself could not sense. Two people who could sense each other miles away in space. It is called the force. A force bond between Father and Son. Only Luke and Vader could sense each other feelings towards each other. Watch ‘Return of The Jedi’ again.
You need to watch the movies you refer to.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Additionally, their telepathic abilities work in completely different pathways. You seem to keep forgetting that. You haven't been paying attention to my posts. I think it is time for me to start quoting myself at you. 🙂
Originally posted by dadudemon
It does. There is nothing even remotely close to Xavier in that universe: old or young. You yourself indirectly admit that Xavier can control other telepaths. I cited evidence that young Xavier can control telepathic minds more powerful than even his. You ignored it. I also pointed out that Xavier's telepathy works in an entirely different pathway than a Jedi's. I also cited an example of one force user over-powering the mind of another force user.
Yes the Jedi use the force, which if existed in X-men universe would still be the most powerful force in the universe since it is in all living things.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Face it, every last front you've presented, I have destroyed you.
Originally posted by dadudemon
So, now, back to my original question:The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Jedi are anywhere close to the abilities of any adult version of Xavier before we even begin entertaining the notion that Xavier cannot mind control the Jedi. Please post your proof before you continue this portion of the conversation. If you cannot post proof, then we stick with the onscreen feats that have both an old and young Xavier controlling telepaths that are more powerful than any Jedi, by far.
Your statement is full of assumptions. We have only seen force users minds controlled by other force users. We have only seen force users be affected by powers pertaining to the force. We have never seen a force user affected by a non-physical ability that did not involve the force.
My assumptions are based on those core facts. Yours on nothing.
Originally posted by Kotor3
There is no direct proof it was done only through the way you stated. Initially that may have been involved but at a certain point it is implied that Sidious is using the force in some way.That is what I get from the quotes from Mace. He change his mind rather quickly during their fight. He didn't go and find evidence to support Sidious claim that he controlled the senate so I would say it was something he sense.
Mace Windu: In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you're under arrest, Chancellor.
Supreme Chancellor: Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?
Mace Windu: The senate will decide your fate.
Supreme Chancellor: [now speaking as Darth Sidious] I AM the senate!
Mace Windu: Not yet.
[the Chancellor/Darth Sidious rises slowly, and his lightsaber snaps to his hand from his sleeve]
Supreme Chancellor: It's treason, then...
[ignites his lightsaber and leaps over his desk to attack]Mace Windu: [has Palpatine subdued] I'm going to put an end to this, once and for all!
Anakin Skywalker: You can't. He must stand trial.
Mace Windu: He has control of the senate and all the courts. He is too dangerous to be left alive!
He had political control.
And he was referring to his plan of becoming Emperor.
When Carmine Falcone from Batman Begins said he controlled the city, was he really saying he had mind control powers?
I'm sure Sidious has been influencing politicians with the force from the beginning, but he did not control their minds as someone like Xavier would.
Originally posted by Kotor3
No it is not. Saying he did so does not make is a feat. He never did this in X-men First Class. Get your movies right.
Same characters, same universe, same series, same timeline. Whine and cry all you want: you can't that. 🙂
Suck it. 🙂
Originally posted by Kotor3
Answer the question given before asking one. One she did resist him the first time when Magneto was trying to kill Shaw on the ship. The second time when she was contained by Magneto Xavier was able to enter her mind.
Thanks for conceding the point. Xavier is >>>> telepaths that are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jedi or Sith.
😄
Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes Luke and Vader two people who are not in this thread. Two people who had a connection that even Sidious himself could not sense. Two people who could sense each other miles away in space. It is called the force. A force bond between Father and Son. Only Luke and Vader could sense each other feelings towards each other. Watch ‘Return of The Jedi’ again.You need to watch the movies you refer to.
*Yawns*
Bla bla bla. More posturing. Stop throwing a fit because I thought of a feat that causes what you thought was a good point, to come crashing down. Vader broke through Luke's defenses. Suck it.
Originally posted by Kotor3
And? What does this have to do with the force? Do I need to post the quote stating the force is in all living things.
hahahahaha
Go ahead and post the quote that shows:
1. The force exists outside the Galaxy that the Star Wars stories take place in.
2. Here's a quote that takes a shit all over your supposed position:
"[The Force] surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
Boom goes the dynamite. haha
You sure you know anything about Star Wars? You seem to be forgetting quite a bit...like the important bits.
First it was Luke's mental defenses failing to Vader's telepathic abilities and now it is you forgetting a very famous quote from Star Wars.
3. Sorry, dude, the force doesn't exist outside of Star Wars. You have got to be shitting me if you think that The Force exists in the Marvel universe. Midichlorians, which mediate the force, simply do not exist in any other universe and, for that matter, any other galaxy.
Originally posted by Kotor3
The only point and statement you have correct here is that Xavier’s telepathy works in an entirely different pathway than a Jedi’s.
You have just conceded the very foundation of my point. I really don't know why you would continue if you concede this point. 😉
Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes the Jedi use the force, which if existed in X-men universe would still be the most powerful force in the universe since it is in all living things.
Luckily, we go by on-screen stuff instead of baseless statements like yours. Sorry, none of the Force Users showed any telepathy on par with anything remotely close to what Xavier did. 🙂
Originally posted by Kotor3
Praising yourself again. This would be twice already in one post.
I am quite amazing. Definitely your superior. peaches
No, but really, I readily admit that I am arrogant. 🙂
Originally posted by Kotor3
You never answer my question. Has a Jedi ever been controlled by a telepath?
You're asking the wrong questions:
1. Has a Jedi ever encountered a telepath as powerful as Xavier?
2. Do we have evidence that Force Users can overpower eachother's minds with the force?
The answer to 1 is no. Definitely no.
The answer to 2 is yes, definitely yes. I gave you the example of Luke and Vader.
You're approaching this situation/condition from the wrong angle. You cannot approach any debate in the MvF like you're doing. "Oh yeah? Was Harry Potter magic ever shown to work on Iron Man? AHA! I gotchoo! Harry Potter magic won't work on Tony Stark!!!!"
That's herping your derp pretty hard, man. That's not how any vs. matchup works on the internet. To me, it is the type of thing people do in the MvF when they have nothing else and are backed into a corner. You have nothing. Your point has always been baseless. You know that. I know that. Why do you continue to dance?
Originally posted by Kotor3
Your statement is full of assumptions. We have only seen force users minds controlled by other force users. We have only seen force users be affected by powers pertaining to the force. We have never seen a force user affected by a non-physical ability that did not involve the force.My assumptions are based on those core facts. Yours on nothing.
"1. Has a Jedi ever encountered a telepath as powerful as Xavier?
2. Do we have evidence that Force Users can overpower eachother's minds with the force?
The answer to 1 is no. Definitely no.
The answer to 2 is yes, definitely yes. I gave you the example of Luke and Vader."
Additionally:
Xavier is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any force user in telepathy. They don't even come close.
None of my assumptions are baseless since all of my points are direct screen feats. 🙂
Do you wanna continue to break the golden rule, my boy? 💃
Originally posted by Placidity
He had political control.And he was referring to his plan of becoming Emperor.
When Carmine Falcone from Batman Begins said he controlled the city, was he really saying he had mind control powers?
I'm sure Sidious has been influencing politicians with the force from the beginning, but he did not control their minds as someone like Xavier would.
👆
Based on Kotor's perspective, we can only conclude that King Henry VIII was a Sith Lord controlling the minds of Parliament to get all of this laws passed.
Originally posted by DTMThis is the film versions. What "insane mental fortitude" did Yoda, Sidious, and Windu demonstrate besides being retarded?
Im lost why people here are using bald Professor X's feats and abilities, when this is supposedly First Class X here, who as pointed out had trouble holding still Shaw, someone with no mental protection or training at all. That level X, mentally raping characters with such insane will and mental fortitude as Yoda, Sidious and Windu, is near laughable.
Originally posted by Kotor3Aside from the whole "veil of the dark side has fallen" (which means like f*ck all as far as the films tell us), what else did he do besides use incredibly obious ploys to manipulate what had to have been the most easily duped and functionally brain dead people in all of modern fiction?
it is implied that Sidious is using the force in some way.
If Rogue was given the mutant cure and was strapped to Magneto's Statue of Liberty chair, she would still somehow manage to convince all the Jedi to commit ritualistic suicide--they are that incapable of intelligent thought.
You dont think being one of the most powerful users of the Force (a power that is 90% mental in its usage) ever in the universe takes supreme mental fortitude and strength? Willpower has been used to resist mind control in most media, thinking young Xavier has stronger will than all of these Jedi/Sith combined is silly, heck Emma resisted this Xaiver and she wasnt even trying.
Resisting Xavier is not a matter of "will" like resisting the Jedi's mind powers are. You simply have to be a powerful telepath to be able to resist Xavier. This is in the movies. The only people I've seen resisting Xavier are Emma and Jean Gray: both of whom are far more powerful than any of the Jedi.
In the comics, it is different.
Really? I guess Shaw was a telepath then, as Xavier was using all of his strength and he could only hold him still for a few minutes. In film scene that bebunks you way of thinking. Strong will and power set (which these jedi/sith have in spades) have proven to resist mind control, especially this Xaivers.
That was due to Shaw's power-set of absorption and the fact he had absorbed enough nuclear energy to turn himself into an atomic bomb that was going to start WW3.
I can't think of anything any Force-user has done in the films that comes close to this or dictates they can resist Xavier's mutant mind-control. Do you have a feat(s)?
That makes no sense to me at all. Because Shaw absorbed atomic energy he can resist Xaivers mind control? According to dadudemon, only another telepath can resist Xaviers MC, though that in film scene shows that is NOT the case. And Shaws power to absorb kinetic energy should give him No bonus to resist it either, it was simply a matter of a powerful, strong willed character providing resistance to Xaviers MC, which is what Im supporting here.
Originally posted by DTM
Really? I guess Shaw was a telepath then, as Xavier was using all of his strength and he could only hold him still for a few minutes. In film scene that bebunks you way of thinking. Strong will and power set (which these jedi/sith have in spades) have proven to resist mind control, especially this Xaivers.
Just because his mutation allowed him resistance against telepaths does not mean this applies to the Jedi.
Sebastian Shaw was also under the control of Xavier...complete and utter control. 🙂
Originally posted by DTM
That makes no sense to me at all. Because Shaw absorbed atomic energy he can resist Xaivers mind control? According to dadudemon, only another telepath can resist Xaviers MC, though that in film scene shows that is NOT the case. And Shaws power to absorb kinetic energy should give him No bonus to resist it either, it was simply a matter of a powerful, strong willed character providing resistance to Xaviers MC, which is what Im supporting here.
Personally, I think the whole Shaw thing is PIS and was only written in to give the movie some "conflict" and a "sense of urgency."
But, yeah, already debunked and addressed the Shaw-myth. Read some of my other posts where I directly address that.