Originally posted by h1a8they ARE peers in strength. always have been. shazam's magical quality is simply what can give him the *advantage* one-on-one. also, no contradiction between superman and shazam has EVER been shown. they have ALWAYS been depicted as near-equals, with any sort of difference between them being marginal at best. the writers' intent couldn't be clearer.
shazam has Superman's vulnerability in magic. That's why they are closer than it would normally be. We are arguing strength here. You are changing the subject.
Characters statements are meaningless if in contradiction to what is shown. But if magic was the reason why Superman said this (I think I remember that comic) then it is irrelevant to what's being discussed.In summary, we are gauging CM's strength through Superman in order to find where he stands against Kurse. Arguing that CM and Superman are peers because of magic vulnerability is irrelevant to that discussion. We are arguing strength only.
but yeah, continue ignoring the actual on-panel showings between the characters in question. that always works out well. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
they ARE peers in strength. always have been. shazam's magical quality is simply what can give him the *advantage* one-on-one. also, no contradiction between superman and shazam has EVER been shown. they have ALWAYS been depicted as near-equals, with any sort of difference between them being marginal at best. the writers' intent couldn't be clearer.but yeah, continue ignoring the actual on-panel showings between the characters in question. that always works out well. 👆
thumbup1
Though I would take Clark 5.5/10 vs Billy gun to my head.
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Originally posted by celeyhyga17nothing wrong with that. in fact, i probably would too. i'm referring mainly to those select few posters who are ridiculously claiming that shazam is a dianna-level character who is many orders of magnitude below clark. they've met several times on panel and have ALWAYS been treated as near-equals.
I'm buyin..thumbup1
Though I would take Clark 5.5/10 vs Billy gun to my head.
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to claim that the intent of DC is the exact opposite of what we've consistently been shown on panel, is just.....well.....f*cking stupid. 👇
Originally posted by Galan007they are peers when it comes to normal everyday Superman (holding back subconsciously). How they WERE depicted has nothing to do with the retcon. Superman has gotten upgrades too. The retcon ensures that Superman bypass CM when his mental blocks come off. With them on then they are peers.
they ARE peers in strength. always have been. shazam's magical quality is simply what can give him the *advantage* one-on-one. also, no contradiction between superman and shazam has EVER been shown. they have ALWAYS been depicted as near-equals, with any sort of difference between them being marginal at best. the writers' intent couldn't be clearer.but yeah, continue ignoring the actual on-panel showings between the characters in question. that always works out well. 👆
But yeah, continue ignoring the actual on-panel retcon about Superman's mental blocks hindering his power greatly. That always works out well.
As far as CM having an advantage over normal Superman, this is false.
what is shown bypasses what is intended by an individual writer. That means Superman is superior to CM. His fighting ability is better, he uses speed more efficiently, he has other powers like freeze breath, hv, wind breath, intangibility, etc. CM magic advantage isn't enough. Now if Normal Everyday Superman fought CM without freeze breath, hv, his extra skill, wind breath, etc. thing CM would have a slight advantage.
Originally posted by Galan007yes they are peers in normal circumstances. This is clear. But when the mental blocks are off then they aren't.
nothing wrong with that. in fact, i probably would too. i'm referring mainly to those select few posters who are ridiculously claiming that shazam is a dianna-level character who is many orders of magnitude below clark. they've met several times on panel and have ALWAYS been treated as near-equals.to claim that the intent of DC is the exact opposite of what we've consistently been shown on panel, is just.....well.....f*cking stupid. 👇
So if they fought in a comic then it would be very close. But if we have DOS mindset or OWAW mindset then it's a different story.
Originally posted by carver9if he were to fight an all-out superman, you mean? they'd still be near-equals, as always. DC has been abundantly clear in that regard.
And what if Captain Marvel cut loose? What will happen?
i don't think h1 grasps the concept that pretty much ANY character in the history of fiction is able to step beyond their normal tier when they decide to 'go for broke'... Especially heroes, as most of them tend to hold back anyway.
Originally posted by Galan007holding back intentionally isn't the same as holding back subconsciously. No character in comic history has increased their might 5x or more by releasing mental blocks. No character has went from not being able to hurt someone to killing them in mere moments with just physical strength.
if he were to fight an all-out superman, you mean? they'd still be near-equals, as always. DC has been abundantly clear in that regard.i don't think h1 grasps the concept that pretty much ANY character in the history of fiction is able to step beyond their normal tier when they decide to 'go for broke'... Especially heroes, as most of them tend to hold back anyway.
Your first and second sentence is ignoring on panel evidence of the retcon.
It was writers intentions that many of Hulks villains were peers to him. But HOTM retcon those instances to Hulk holding black GREATLY.
Originally posted by h1a8
he already has. He has no subconscious mental blocks that makes him access less than 20% of his power.
Lol...iirc, He admitted during a fight against a possessed Superman that he holds back, then, lol, Captain Marvel holds back just like any Super hero does...especially against Superman, the guy he consider the greatest hero ever. How about this, prove that he doesn't hold back with a scan. I don't care about your 20% comment. Show me some proof.
Originally posted by Galan007
if he were to fight an all-out superman, you mean? they'd still be near-equals, as always. DC has been abundantly clear in that regard.i don't think h1 grasps the concept that pretty much ANY character in the history of fiction is able to step beyond their normal tier when they decide to 'go for broke'... Especially heroes, as most of them tend to hold back anyway.
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Originally posted by h1a8*cough*berserker rage*cough*
No character in comic history has increased their might 5x or more by releasing mental blocks.
Originally posted by h1a8i have not only acknowledged this 'retcon', but i have even cited a superman/shazam battle that took place after it. you're just too obtuse to grasp simplistic concepts at this point--you'd much rather cling to your own fanmade theories/percentages.
Your first and second sentence is ignoring on panel evidence of the retcon.
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i'm done wasting my time. h1 can have the last word that he so desperately craves. i won't even be looking at this thread any further. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007berserker rage as in wolverine? So wolverine becomes more than 5x stronger when he enters berserker rage?
*cough*berserker rage*cough*i have not only acknowledged this 'retcon', but i have even cited a superman/shazam battle that took place after it. you're just too obtuse to grasp simplistic concepts at this point--you'd much rather cling to your own fanmade theories/percentages.
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why am i wasting my time?
No you haven't. The retcon talks about releasing subconscious blocks makes Superman VASTLY more powerful. The scene you are referring to is talking about normal circumstances where Superman's mental blocks would be in play (as the retcon stated).
Originally posted by h1a8
berserker rage as in wolverine? So wolverine becomes more than 5x stronger when he enters berserker rage?No you haven't. The retcon talks about releasing subconscious blocks makes Superman VASTLY more powerful. The scene you are referring to is talking about normal circumstances where Superman's mental blocks would be in play (as the retcon stated).
Wolverine went from losing to Sabertooth and Omega red to, taking on Sabertooth who was backed by Omega Red (Who usually Beats him), Mystique, Wild Child, lets put it like this, he defeated his entire Rogue simultaneously while still not going all out.
Let's move to Hulk. Hulk went from getting his arm broke by Red Hulk, choked to sleep, koed again, to taking Rulk out with a single thunder clap, AFTER tanking everything he dished out, AFTER getting his powers absorbed and added to Rulk own power.
Let's move to Spiderman. Spiderman went from getting his eye snatched out by Morlun to having Morlun tank everything he threw at him. To running from Morlun ending with him one shot killing him.
This list can get big H1. Tremendously big. This crap happens all of the time. Batman took out Amazo, a guy a stomps the JLA. Flash not holding back mud stomping a speed force amped ape that had every advantage on him. You're concept of things is minimum at best. Maybe I need to PM you some comics.