Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The fact is.. in direct saber combat.. Kenobi partially disarmed him.. Maul couldn't do that unless he used a force push. Maul was unable to react to Kenobi (while looking at him) fly through the air.. call his saber... flip over him and slice him in half. No amount of excuses changes Kenobi killing him.
Don't be silly KT.
Kenobi was no match for Maul in TPM. In fact he wasn't even Qui-Gon's equal yet. The novel makes that clear. Which is why he wasn't there to help Qui-Gon when he faced Maul alone. He simply couldn't keep up with the other 2.
And Kenobi lost in "direct Saber combat" twice. First time when he was boot kicked and disarmed (with Qui-Gon's help no less) and second time when he fell down the pit.
Both times he was FULLY disarmed, not just "partially" disarmed. And Maul did those both times without any kind of Amp or Rage Enhancement.
And yes Kenobi sliced him in the end by a completely surprise attack. Maul had no idea Kenobi still had a Lightsaber available to him, like Marco has proven.
Originally posted by Psychotron
This is silly, Kenobi was pushing Maul back and destroyed half of his weapon. Maul only pushed down the pit Obi-Wan with the Force, not with his saber. A motivated Obi-Wan was a superior duelist to Maul even in TPM. Maul is more powerful with the Force, though.
Maul pushed Kenobi down the pit with a Force push(after Forcing Kenobi back in a Saber Lock no less) because he was the superior combatant.
IF Kenobi had attempted to block the Force push but was simply overpowered THEN you could have your excuse that Kenobi only lost because Maul was more powerful with the Force.
But that's not what happened. What happened was Maul caught Kenobi with an attack he was completely unprepared for. How? Because Maul was the better combatant. So Honestly Force Pushing Kenobi down the pit was no different to if he Kicked him down the pit. Either one he does by being the FAR superior Lightsaber combatant.
What's silly is thinking TPM Kenobi was Equal to/Greater than TPM Maul in Sabers when THE BEST Qui-Gon and Kenobi could do TOGETHER was Stalemate Maul.
You talk about a "Motivated" Kenobi? What would happen I wonder if Maul was given a Sudden Amp in motivation and determination? A 10 second fight is what.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul pushed Kenobi down the pit with a Force push(after Forcing Kenobi back in a Saber Lock no less) because he was the superior combatant.IF Kenobi had attempted to block the Force push but was simply overpowered THEN you could have your excuse that Kenobi only lost because Maul was more powerful with the Force.
But that's not what happened. What happened was Maul caught Kenobi with an attack he was completely unprepared for. How? Because Maul was the better combatant. So Honestly Force Pushing Kenobi down the pit was no different to if he Kicked him down the pit. Either one he does by being the FAR superior Lightsaber combatant.
What's silly is thinking TPM Kenobi was Equal to/Greater than TPM Maul in Sabers when THE BEST Qui-Gon and Kenobi could do TOGETHER was Stalemate Maul.
You talk about a "Motivated" Kenobi? What would happen I wonder if Maul was given a Sudden Amp in motivation and determination? A 10 second fight is what.
This is wrong on so many levels. I already admitted that Obi-Wan has inferior Force powers, and I'm sure everyone agrees. If Maul had pushed him down the pit with a kick or a punch or whatever you'd have have a point, but since he had to resort to his Force powers that shows us that he couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a pure saber duel, especially since Maul prefers to overwhelm his opponents physically.
TPM Kenobi was definitely superior to Jinn by the end of the duel, the fact that Jinn got wrecked as soon as they entered the room while Obi-Wan put Maul on his ass speaks for itself. Maul had to split them up for a reason, they would have beaten him if he didn't.
Okay, an amp is a boost in power from an external source, that's nothing like what happened to Kenobi. He just got pissed, so he wasn't amped, he was just giving it everything he had. And we saw the result, Maul floored and his saber cut in half less than a minute into the fight. And by the way, Maul led Jinn into that tight space to separate them, and because it was more difficult to use Ataru there, so Kenobi was actually fighting at a disadvantage.
Originally posted by Psychotron
This is wrong on so many levels.
Clearly you've never read the novel. Not that you need the novel to see something that's so blatantly clear as to the superior combatant in that fight.
Originally posted by Psychotron
I already admitted that Obi-Wan has inferior Force powers, and I'm sure everyone agrees. If Maul had pushed him down the pit with a kick or a punch or whatever you'd have have a point, but since he had to resort to his Force powers that shows us that he couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a pure saber duel, especially since Maul prefers to overwhelm his opponents physically.
Go read what I said again, because you've obviously completely ignored it.
IF Kenobi managed an attempt to Block the Force push, and then got overpowered, THEN IN THAT SCENARIO you'd be right.
But the fact is he simply got outfought. Maul clearly pushed him back in a Saber lock right before that, which left him opened to a Force push.
Don't speculate on what Maul would and wouldn't do in a fight. A force push is a very basic part of a Lightsaber fight involving Force users.
Originally posted by Psychotron
TPM Kenobi was definitely superior to Jinn by the end of the duel,
Again you've clearly not read the novel which makes it clear Obi-Wan wasn't yet Qui-Gon's equal. Nothing suggests he suddenly became a vastly better Saber duelist during the few minutes that fight lasted. Becoming a vastly better Saber duelist takes time and practice. It doesn't happen overnight.
Originally posted by Psychotron
the fact that Jinn got wrecked as soon as they entered the room while Obi-Wan put Maul on his ass speaks for itself.
Yeah let's ignore the fact that Qui-Gon only entered the pit room to face Maul alone because Kenobi couldn't keep up. Let's also ignore the fact that Maul and Qui-Gon had been fighting pretty much the whole time apart from 1 short break, whilst Kenobi had a Massive Break from the fight. And let's ignore the numerous times Maul put Kenobi on his ass.
And let's also ignore the Pretty damn Obvious fact that after he saw Qui-Gon getting killed Kenobi was more motivated and determined to beat Maul than Qui-Gon would have been at any point in the fight. Heck in that last fight Kenobi was more determined to win than even Maul was the whole fight.
And yet still, Kenobi fell in the direct fight. He only won via a SURPRISE attack with a Weapon MAUL HAD NO IDEA Kenobi had.
Originally posted by Psychotron
Maul had to split them up for a reason, they would have beaten him if he didn't.Okay, an amp is a boost in power from an external source, that's nothing like what happened to Kenobi. He just got pissed, so he wasn't amped, he was just giving it everything he had. And we saw the result, Maul floored and his saber cut in half less than a minute into the fight. And by the way, Maul led Jinn into that tight space to separate them, and because it was more difficult to use Ataru there, so Kenobi was actually fighting at a disadvantage.
Wait wait, where are you getting this that HE HAD TO Separate them?
The Kick he gave Kenobi was meant to finish him off, not just to separate him from Qui-Gon. And he did have Kenobi pretty much finished with that kick had it not been for Qui-Gon saving Kenobi's ass.
Don't give me that bull crap that it was difficult to use Ataro in that space. Kenobi managed a good couple of sumersaults there without any issues. Maul himself was twirling there without any issues.
Maul is a more acrobatic combatant than Kenobi, so if anything he would be more disadvantaged in a tight space.
That tight space would have helped Maul had he fought both of them there. Because that would have restrcited their space without bumping into 1 another. Last time I checked there's nothing wrong or desperate about being tactical. Nor is it a sign of 1 losing. In fact considering they were stalemating, it was right for Maul to be tactical to shift the odds his way, to end the stalemate.
As it was Kenobi couldn't keep up with the fight anyway, so the odds were in Maul's favor regardless.
Also you've clearly got no concept of temporary Rage enhanced states.
Originally posted by Psychotron
This is silly, Kenobi was pushing Maul back and destroyed half of his weapon. Maul only pushed down the pit Obi-Wan with the Force, not with his saber. A motivated Obi-Wan was a superior duelist to Maul even in TPM. Maul is more powerful with the Force, though.
Maul force pushed him because Kenobi lost his balance and give an openning to Maul.
Not to mention he only able to fight with Maul because of his Masters death fueled him (force rage)
From TPM novelization ;
The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow. Never! he swore furiously. Qui-Gon's words came back to him. Don't center on your fears. Concentrate on the here and now. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan. Be strong. Sensing his opportunity slipping away from him and his strength waning, Obi-Wan mounted a final assault. He rushed the Sith Lord with a series of side blows designed to bring the two-bladed lightsaber horizontal. Then he feinted an attack to his enemy's left and brought his own lightsaber over and down with such force that he severed the other's weapon. Crying out in fury, he cut triumphantly at the Sith Lord's horned head, a killing blow. And missed completely. Darth Maul, anticipating the maneuver, had stepped smoothly away. Discarding the lesser half of his severed weapon, he counterattacked swiftly, striking at Obi-Wan with enough force that he knocked the young Jedi sideways and off balance. Quickly he struck him again, harder still, and this time Obi-Wan lost his footing completely and tumbled over the edge of the pit, his lightsaber flying from his hand. For an instant, he was falling, tumbling away into the dark. He reached out in desperation and caught hold of a metal rung just below the lip of the pit. There he hung, helpless, staring up at a triumphant Darth Maul. Source : The Phantom Menace Novelization
There is also this source ;
Originally posted by Marco1907
''I heard Qui-Gon's words within me... It was Qui-Gon's blade that his killer was felled.''--Taken from ; Jedi vs. Sith The Essential Guide to the Force
Kenobi says Maul fed off from his ''fury'' and gains strength as he exhausted. This is also a good feat for Maul tbh, I don't know which technique is this but feeding from forge rage is certainly a usefull ability. (similar to Mace's vaapad maybe)
As for Qui-Gon / Kenobi comparison ; There are many source says that Kenobi was still not Qui-Gon's equal by TPM.
''Maul’s defeat at the hands of the Jedi in a power-generator station that he understood in part the reason for the sense of loss and profound solitude he had experienced following the murder of Plagueis. He could have pressed one of the other Jedi who had arrived on Naboo for information as to how Maul had managed to kill a master sword fighter only to be overcome by a lesser one, but he didn’t want to know, and as a result be able to imagine the contest. Still, it gave him great pleasure to stand among Yoda, Mace Windu, and other Masters and watch Qui-Gon Jinn’s body reduced to ash, knowing that the Jedi was just the first casualty in a war that had been declared but not yet begun; one in which ten thousand Jedi would follow Qui-Gon to the grave …''
---Source ; Darth Plagueis
''Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen.''
--- Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
''Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable.''
--Source: Jedi Academy: Training Manual
''They had fought together before, and they knew each other's moves. Qui-Gon had trained Obi-Wan, and while the younger Jedi was not yet his equal, he believed that one day Obi-Wan would be better than he had ever been.''
---Source: The Phantom Menace
''The dark warrior caused mayhem and disruption and succeeded in destroying one of the galaxy's greatest Jedi Knights.''
---Source: Star Wars Fact Files #01
''Dooku : I expected much more from Qui-Gon's former padawan. ''
--Source: Star Wars Omnibus Menace Revealed
Even by AotC, Kenobi is comparable to Qui-Gon.
Look, I understand you guys use novelizations and shit, but the movies are the ultimate canon for me, and they trump everything else. Like in the quote you posted, Obi-Wan didn't lose his balance in the movie, they were clearly in a saber lock.
IMO, TPM Obi-Wan was clearly Maul's equal, if not superior in dueling. ROTS Obi-Wan is definitely > Maul. He did tap into his anger, but I wouldn't call that an amp. That's like saying Luke was amped when he defeated Vader.
@Psychotron
If you want another source, since you take only movies (which is fine) here
starwars. com says ''Maul toyed with him'' ;
http://www.starwars.com/databank/obi-wan-kenobi
''Maul toyed with him, kicking Obi-Wan’s lightsaber into the abyss, ''
This site only take reference from movies and animations (since only these are canon now except SoD and Tarkin)
As for RotS Obi-Wan (since he was become comparable to Dooku and bested Anakin where Dooku fails) being superior duelist than TPM Darth Maul, I would agree with this. (but not by much) But then, TCW Darth Maul has grown much more powerful in Clone Wars, and he is much better duelist than his TPM version.
Originally posted by Psychotron
Look, I understand you guys use novelizations and shit, but the movies are the ultimate canon for me, and they trump everything else. Like in the quote you posted, Obi-Wan didn't lose his balance in the movie, they were clearly in a saber lock.
You're also mistaken here;
Obi lost his balance before force push.
0:19-0:20
You can also see at 0:12, Obi-Wan starts to understand that he was going to lose it.
Originally posted by Marco1907
@PsychotronIf you want another source, since you take only movies (which is fine) here
starwars. com says ''Maul toyed with him'' ;http://www.starwars.com/databank/obi-wan-kenobi
''Maul toyed with him, kicking Obi-Wan’s lightsaber into the abyss, ''
This site only take reference from movies and animations (since only these are canon now except SoD and Tarkin)
Originally posted by Marco1907Obi lost his balance before force push.
0:19-0:20
You can also see at 0:12, Obi-Wan start to understand that he was going to lose it.
👆 Yeah it's pretty clear from the Actual fight and if that's not enough, then pretty much every source on the subject.
Originally posted by Psychotron
Come on now, Obi-Wan wasn't off balance, Maul simply won that saber lock. Again, using a FORCE push to win your fight doesn't make you a better duelist. However, destroying your opponents weapon, putting him on his ass, and cutting him in half, even though he had plenty of time to react, does.
facepalm
