There is one source which said Maul was still recovering from his leg injury during the duel at Theed.. but I find that hard to believe. On Tattooine alone it was "nearly imperceptible", although still somewhat hampering, and then Sidious himself said knowing Maul he would have recovered by that point in time anyway.
I doubt Maul was fatigued when he fought Kenobi, and if he was he likely would have just replenished himself using the Dark Side like he has done under worse circumstances.
Originally posted by ILS
There is one source which said Maul was still recovering from his leg injury during the duel at Theed.. but I find that hard to believe. On Tattooine alone it was "nearly imperceptible", although still somewhat hampering, and then Sidious himself said knowing Maul he would have recovered by that point in time anyway.
Darth Maul's Journal. And yes Sidious says at the end, I'm sure he was fine for the fight.
Originally posted by ILS
I doubt Maul was fatigued when he fought Kenobi, and if he was he likely would have just replenished himself using the Dark Side like he has done under worse circumstances.
It's simply a factor that can not be ignored, because even people with great stamina will perform best when they're fully rested. Qui-Gon was a strong dude attempting to batter away at Maul's defenses the whole fight. In fact both Qui-Gon and Kenobi were battering on his defenses for a good deal of time. Then there's the fact that Kenobi had been out of the fight for a long while when he came back in. So he definitely would have been fully rested.
If you give a professional boxer 5 rounds with a semi-professional, then 5 rounds with another semi-professional, and then a final round with the first guy, and then if in that final round the first guy does well, knocks the professional boxer down at one point but still loses, you can't then just turn around and start praising the semi-prof for that, saying he's better than the professional.
Heck why else did General Grievous send Magnagurds to go "soften Maul up" before Grievous faced him? That proves it makes a difference even with Jedi/Sith of Kenobi/Maul's caliber.
The other factor that can't be ignored is Qui-Gon getting killed in front of Kenobi.
Both those are factors that lead to Kenobi performing much better in that final round than he normally would have.
Originally posted by Arhael
Had Maul being fully rested, there is no way Kenobi no matter how focused would be able to even split Maul's lightsaber.
👆 Yep to truly even the odds they would both need to be fully rested. And either neither of them sees someone die, or if Kenobi sees Qui-Gon get killed by Maul, then Maul should also see Opress killed by Kenobi.
The odds were even at the beginning of the fight, except Kenobi had aid from a better Jedi than himself (at the time), so even then the odds were in Kenobi's favor, yet Kenobi's the one who couldn't keep up with the fight.
Kenobi just got Knighted in that movie, and he was really good considering the stage of his life he was at. But I don't see the need in comparing him to a Sith Lord of Maul's caliber at that time.
Darth Maul's Journal. And yes Sidious says at the end, I'm sure he was fine for the fight.Yep, I've read it.
t's simply a factor that can not be ignored, because even people with great stamina will perform best when they're fully rested. Qui-Gon was a strong dude attempting to batter away at Maul's defenses the whole fight. In fact both Qui-Gon and Kenobi were battering on his defenses for a good deal of time. Then there's the fact that Kenobi had been out of the fight for a long while when he came back in. So he definitely would have been fully rested.As I said before, Maul has fought at close to peak capacity under worse circumstances. One of his best speed feats happened because he was shot in the arm with a blaster bolt and subsequently used the Dark Side to bolster his physicals in spite of the injury. After months of fighting fleets of assassin droids in absolutely inhospitable conditions, eating nothing but scarce amounts of raw meat for nourishment, as well as having an infected wound fester over time, he ended up drawing on the Dark Side and feeling better than ever. And according to IIRC Jedi: Power Battles (or something along those lines), Jinn and Kenobi's Ataru was nothing but delaying tactics in comparison to Maul's skill. There is nothing to suggest that the fatigue Maul would have gained from fighting them would have been anything more than negligible.
If you give a professional boxer 5 rounds with a semi-professional, then 5 rounds with another semi-professional, and then a final round with the first guy, and then if in that final round the first guy does well, knocks the professional boxer down at one point but still loses, you can't then just turn around and start praising the semi-prof for that, saying he's better than the professional.Not only is applying hypothetical, real-world logic to a fictional scenario featuring super-beings a bad idea, it's not even an argument. I agree with the premise of what you're saying but it doesn't really apply to Darth Maul. I haven't really been reading the debate in this thread so I don't know what's been said, all I'm asserting is that there's more proof that Maul wouldn't have been even slightly fatigued during that duel than if he was.
Heck why else did General Grievous send Magnagurds to go "soften Maul up" before Grievous faced him? That proves it makes a difference even with Jedi/Sith of Kenobi/Maul's caliber.Yeah, nobody is disputing that fatigue issues would affect Maul in a fight. The point I'm making is that Maul wasn't fatigued during TPM. If he was fatigued after fighting those MagnaGuards it's unlikely, but plausible, because apparently "most Jedi" would be too tired to properly engage General Grievous if they had to fight MagnaGuards in order to get to him. Maul obviously isn't most Jedi, but he may have been somewhat tired from fighting them, although he basically blitzed them so I doubt he was very tired at all... endurance is one of his main traits. Guy survived like 18 days on Mustafar by scavenging with his bare hands at the age of 3.
The other factor that can't be ignored is Qui-Gon getting killed in front of Kenobi.I agree, Kenobi was drawing on the Dark Side. Although there is a source which noted that Maul was actually feeding off of Kenobi's anger and gaining strength from it, and another which notes that Kenobi left himself more open to counter-attack because of his anger, so this somewhat balances out that Force Rage would have amplified his physical stats.Both those are factors that lead to Kenobi performing much better in that final round than he normally would have.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERHeck why else did General Grievous send Magnagurds to go "soften Maul up" before Grievous faced him? That proves it makes a difference even with Jedi/Sith of Kenobi/Maul's caliber.
Agreed. This is why I believe B-Team were useful to Windu.
Originally posted by ILS
I agree, Kenobi was drawing on the Dark Side. Although there is a source which noted that Maul was actually feeding off of Kenobi's anger and gaining strength from it, and another which notes that Kenobi left himself more open to counter-attack because of his anger, so this somewhat balances out that Force Rage would have amplified his physical stats.
No credit to me for this source ? What happened to my all SW view, I thought it was stupid.
Originally posted by Marco1907LMFAO
No credit to me for this source ? What happened to my all SW view, I thought it was stupid.
I stalk you... I steal your source material... I wonder what nefarious act I will commit next...
Very well. I just thought you see that from this thread.
Btw, I never rip off ''comic scans'' from respect threads, I take book quotes sometimes because I am too lazy to find from my pdf book collection to find the same quotes, not that because I am stealing it, I already have those materials, and as you know I took Qui-Gon quotes from nova's thread last day because nova already used lots of stuff from my souces in Qui-Gon respect thread (probably in Obi-Wan too) as well. Otherwise I wouldn't take it, it was special to Qui-Gon only.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Agreed. This is why I believe B-Team were useful to Windu.
👆
Even if their use was minimal, considering how equal Windu and Sidious fought, that minimal help could certainly have effected the result of the Saber fight.
Not to mention the B-Team being there forced Sidious into a close-quarter fight in the first place.
I addressed this in a thread I made a while back.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=597706
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Here's a new thing I'm trying, which is a one on one defeat rather than a one vs group defeat. I'm going to tackle one that has left Star Wars fans baffled for quite a while now. How the hell was Maul defeated by Obi-wan in TPM?The Defeated: Darth Maul was a bit too cocky for his own good in that fight. Having just defeated Qui-gon, whom his master stated to be the more powerful of the two, and having treated Kenobi as a non-factor for the previous part of the fight, Maul was almost certainly underestimating Kenobi. And Maul certainly didn't expect anything of Kenobi after he had pushed him into the pit, disarming him and eliminating his weapon from the fight. Through his hubris, Maul overlooked the other weapon in the room.
The Victor: Obi-wan Kenobi is hardly your average Jedi Padawan first of all. He was trained by Qui-gon Jinn, an expert swordsman who held Kenobi at high esteem, and was also on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight. To top this off, Kenobi was empowered by the rage of losing his master, so was pushing himself a lot further than he previously had been.
Sign(s) of the Superiority of the Fallen: After Maul regains his composure after being caught off guard by Kenobi, Maul kicked Kenobi, casually twirled over his blade before exhibiting a taunting pose, and a few seconds later he met Kenobi in a bladelock, overpowering Kenobi and opening him up to either a physical, force, or lightsaber attack, with Maul being perfectly capable of applying any of these to end the fight at that point.
Conclusion: So basically Maul who had just defeated Kenobi's master, who had demonstrated far greater ability than him throughout the fight, was considerably cocky, and underestimating Kenobi. Kenobi however, being an exceptionally skilled padawan and empowered by his rage was capable of catching Maul off guard in the first twenty seconds of their fight, cutting Maul's saberstaff in half. Maul however managed to recover from Kenobi's strike at his weapon and regain his composure in the next seven seconds, managing to turn the fight back in his favor. With his composure regained, he kicked Kenobi, easily dodged his attacks, and overpowered him in a bladelock in the next fifteen seconds, leaving the padawan open to a variety of moves Maul could've used to finish him off. Maul having already bested his opponent thoroughly enough, used the force to throw him into the pit, and discarded Kenobi's weapon, removing it from the fight. Having solidly beat and disarmed Kenobi, Maul no longer considered him a threat, and in his hubris failed to recognize the fact that Jinn's lightsaber was still available for Kenobi to use, and when Kenobi took advantage of this opportunity, Maul was completely unprepared, caught off guard, and lost his legs because of this.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No what's a GREAT Rebuttal is you Ignoring ALL of your points being thoroughly REFUTED time and time AGAIN, with ALL OF THE EVIDENCE against you, but then just saying "Doesn't matter because Obi-Wan cut Maul's SABER LULZZZ."But just to Destroy your points AGAIN, I'll break down the last point you made on the subject AGAIN:
And he clearly threw him Off-Balance by winning the Saber Lock.
AGAIN You could EQUALIZE their Force TK Abilites, and Kenobi still would have been hit. Because he's the One who was Off-Balance, and left Open to a Force Push.
That is because Maul was simply the Superior combatant, Even After Kenobi was in a rage and trying to Avenge Qui-Gon, and Even After Kenobi was out of the fight for such a long time, he may as well have had a Nap. Even after all that, Maul still won the direct Saber fight, because Maul was still the Better Combatant.
Because AGAIN Force pushes are a basic part of Jedi/Sith Saber fights.
If Kenobi only Fell AFTER attempting to block the Force push, THEN AND ONLY THEN would you have a point.
You want to count WHO dropped/lost grip of their weapon more times, and WHO got put on their ASS more times, despite the fact that Kenobi had help from a Superior Jedi to himself for the Vast majority of the fight?
Yeah except the fact that Maul had absolutely no idea Kenobi had a weapon until it was too late.
I.e. It was a completely Surprise attack.
But yeah you just miss out simple things like CONTEXT and like THE FACTS and stick to your Great Argument of "BUT HE CUT HIS WEAPON AND SLICED HIM IN 2 LULZZZZ!!!!"
Your biased opinions =/= evidence.
Do you seriously think Maul would have been able to push Kenobi down the pit without the Force? And do you honestly think Obi-Wan would have been resist Maul's push even he wasn't "off balance"
He didn't win a direct saber fight, are you serious? He used a Force push.
No, they aren't. They're Force powers. When someone sets up a vs thread and asks who wins in Sabers, Force, and All out, do you think they'll use Force pushes in the saber part?
The Kenobi that fought with Jinn isn't the same Kenobi who fought Maul solo. He was clearly more focused and motivated. And based on their performances against the same opponent Obi-Wan is clearly superior to Jinn. Maul was put an his ass, had his weapon damaged, and was cut in half even when he had a huge advantage by a padawan Kenobi, deal with it.
Originally posted by ILS
In the TPM comic Maul kicks Kenobi into the reactor core. I think there's another alternate depiction somewhere else too. Food for thought.
In an interview with Ray Park years ago he said it was just a way of not repeating the same move.
Seriously Force Push is a standard part of a Saber fight just like Kicks. The superior combatant will mix things up more efficiently and will spot the best attack for the opening given.
Anakin and Obi-Wan fought so equally that they anticipated and blocked each others Force pushes.
There is some possibility for Jinn to solo this.
"To be honest, I expected much more... from Gui-Gon's former padawan"
-- Dooku, "Most Precious Weapon"
According to this, Dooku consider Qui-Gon's skills as well above of those of AOTC Kenobi's.
Ventress had equal duel with Fisto and Mundi, and was loosing to Plo who had one arm broken.
Still, she should be placed a bit above Jinn, but I doubt, that she will be able to beat him in every singe fight. Qui-Gon was able to hard-press TPM Maul, who was after all a Sith Lord (and even if he wasn't trained properly, still people like Plagueis were under impress of him), superior to Ventress.
With Obi-Wan on Qui-Gon's side, Jedi will take the majority.