Originally posted by Board Walker
That is simply your own opinion, and he was the Ex-writer. You can choose to deny on panel evidence and calculations, that is your own delusion.
That's kind of funny coming from someone that claimed that Batman moves at FTL speeds. Kind of makes you wonder why he uses the Bat-Mobile to get around if he can actually move that fast.
Originally posted by StoicBatman has reacted to stuff after it was launched. There was no such thing as him anticipating it. Thor should be thousands of times faster than Gamora and Wolverine since he is probably millions of times stronger. But he's not. Strong characters are not necessarily faster than weaker characters in comics. That shows that strength has little to nothing to do with speed in most writer's eyes. These characters don't exist in reality. They exist only in the mind of the writer.
Nightcrawler is only more agile because he was trained to be, but he is not faster. Training has a lot to do with why Batman would evade a faster character than himself because he knows what to look for. i took MA as well. I know when a typical untrained person is going to throw a kick. How? Well their shoulders will drop. Do it, get up right now, and throw a kick. Notice your shoulders drop. The same applies to characters that are not as skilled as Batman, but are actually faster than he is. In this case he is up against someone stronger than he is, and just as skilled. Like I said before, he is outclassed. You want to argue speed when it suits you, but when it throws a monkey wrench into your entire stance, you want to get rid of it. The only time that speed is not directly taken from strength in comics is when the character is powered by an outside force. The speed force, metaphysical forces, cosmic saturation, solar powered... etc... This is not the case here.I wouldn't take the advice of someone that argued with the writer over his own work, and still refuses to see their error. Sorry but you don't have a dog in this fight.
Bottomline, Batman has feats of speed and reflexes greater than her. Thus by on panel feats she is not faster.
Originally posted by h1a8
Batman has reacted to stuff after it was launched. There was no such thing as him anticipating it. Thor should be thousands of times faster than Gamora and Wolverine since he is probably millions of times stronger. But he's not. Strong characters are not necessarily faster than weaker characters in comics. That shows that strength has little to nothing to do with speed in most writer's eyes. These characters don't exist in reality. They exist only in the mind of the writer.Bottomline, Batman has feats of speed and reflexes greater than her. Thus by on panel feats she is not faster.
There you go with those ridiculous numbers again. All super strong characters have super speed. Did you think that they run at the same speed as an Olympic athlete?
Show me one scan of him moving faster than she did in the scan in this very thread. I have asked you to do this before, but you don't seem to be able to find even one feat that shows him moving remotely as fast as she did. Show me him running past or over a character as heavy, and big as Ronan, and that same character being caught up in his wake as he moves past them. Show me or stop writing about how he is faster than she is. You won't because he isn't. She's shorter than he is, which means her limbs are shorter than his are, and yet she runs faster than he does, which also directly means that her shorter limbs are actually moving faster than his can move.
Stop with the strawman tactics, and show me.
Originally posted by Stoictop speed =/= speed. That's where you are confused. You can start out traveling slow and gain a little speed per second. After enough time then you can reach bullet speeds and beyond. Running speed isn't combat speed. The latter is the only thing we are discussing. Thor should literally move thousands of times faster than Gamora and Batman in every way (throwing a punch, running, etc). But he doesn't. Strength doesn't contribute to speed in comics. Skill and unique power set does.
There you go with those ridiculous numbers again. All super strong characters have super speed. Did you think that they run at the same speed as an Olympic athlete?Show me one scan of him moving faster than she did in the scan in this very thread. I have asked you to do this before, but you don't seem to be able to find even one feat that shows him moving remotely as fast as she did. Show me him running past or over a character as heavy, and big as Ronan, and that same character being caught up in his wake as he moves past them. Show me or stop writing about how he is faster than she is. You won't because he isn't. She's shorter than he is, which means her limbs are shorter than his are, and yet she runs faster than he does, which also directly means that her shorter limbs are actually moving faster than his can move.
Stop with the strawman tactics, and show me.
The scan where Batman moves to block a laser after the laser entered the air.
The scan where Batman moves to catch an arrow only after it is inches from him.
The scan where Batman bats bullets out of the air with his gauntlets.
The scan where Batman avoids a very thick hail storm of bullets.
Originally posted by h1a8
top speed =/= speed. That's where you are confused. You can start out traveling slow and gain a little speed per second. After enough time then you can reach bullet speeds and beyond. Running speed isn't combat speed. The latter is the only thing we are discussing. Thor should literally move thousands of times faster than Gamora and Batman in every way (throwing a punch, running, etc). But he doesn't. Strength doesn't contribute to speed in comics. Skill and unique power set does.
Running speed doesn't correlate to striking and reflex speed. Although Batman has moved faster than any vehicle for a short burst.
I argue that she made contact with him.The scan where Batman moves to block a laser after the laser entered the air.
The scan where Batman moves to catch an arrow only after it is inches from him.
The scan where Batman bats bullets out of the air with his gauntlets.
The scan where Batman avoids a very thick hail storm of bullets.
Let me correct you; Speed does not ALWAYS result from strength in comics, but when the writer wants to make an example of what the strength of such, and such character has gained from their sudden strength boost, speed is often one of the attributes that increases. Is Peter Parker faster with his powers, than he was without them? The answer is yes, he is a great deal faster in every way. Traveling speed when it comes to running, and not flying is what we are talking about in case you missed that along the way. If Batman were to have a foot race against Gamora, he would lose. Since she is shorter than Batman, which also proves that her limbs are shorter, it automatically means that her limbs move faster than his do. If her limbs move faster than his, she has faster movement speeds than he does.
Now if we were to go with your logic, that makes no sense at all, and say that Batman, who happens to be heavier, and larger, yet weaker than Gamora but has greater movement speeds than Gamora (again something that makes no sense at all) it would automatically make him stronger than she is, which we know is not the case.
I asked you to show me one scan of Batman doing the same thing to a character of Ronan's size and weight, but you can not, because he can not move that fast. Again, this is running, and not flying. Let's not lose sight of the fact, that Gamora does not fly.
Gamora has dodged lasers, Gamora made Venom look like he was moving in slow motion, and Venom can move as fast as Spider Man who happens to be faster than Batman, unless you want people to believe the same nonsense that Board Walker was going on about when they said that Batman can move at the speed of light. Is this something that you are also claiming? Let me know now so that I can ignore anything else that you post on the subject.
Thor is not portrayed as a speedster, or an acrobat with uncanny reflexes, and agility. We will never see these things from him unless he is fighting against a giant. This does not mean that he can not move across land at incredible rates of speed while running. Running in and of itself is movement speed, because the character would actually be moving, and not flying or levitating from one destination to the other.
Comics contradict themselves because it's part of the magic that makes for good fiction. The writers are not going to acknowledge everything that should occur in the real world, but whenever to want to, they can give the reader a glimpse of something that they are not normally known to do. Look at the Juggernaut for example. No one ever knew that he could run at over 500 MPH, but then we see that he was capable of those speeds.
Thanos is a character that has repeatedly shown great reaction speeds. He was unable to even touch Gamora. How fast was Gamora moving in that scene? Could she have been moving faster than Spider Man since we have seen her evade Venom who has been proven to be just as fast as Spider Man? Well I for one think that she is. Is Batman as fast as Spider Man? We saw Spider Man blitz Firelord, could Batman do that to a herald of Galactus, and make him seem like he was moving in slow motion? I think that Batman is fast, but I do not believe that he can generate that kind of speed.
Is Batman faster than Captain America at his prime? How about Daredevil, or the Black Panther? Could it be that he is just as fast as they are? Could it be that Gamora is actually faster than Batman? Could Venom, and Spider Man be faster than Batman? Like I said, Batman is fast, but there are different levels of speed.
Originally posted by Stoicreal world physics goes against what is shown though. You can't go against what is shown in favor of real world physics. Of course being stronger and the same size can make one move faster. But that isn't the case in comics, otherwise we would have to throw away a shitload of feats. All of Batman's feats would not be allowed since him moving that fast requires a strength beyond anything Gamora ever shown.
Let me correct you; Speed does not ALWAYS result from strength in comics, but when the writer wants to make an example of what the strength of such, and such character has gained from their sudden strength boost, speed is often one of the attributes that increases. Is Peter Parker faster with his powers, than he was without them? The answer is yes, he is a great deal faster in every way. Traveling speed when it comes to running, and not flying is what we are talking about in case you missed that along the way. If Batman were to have a foot race against Gamora, he would lose. Since she is shorter than Batman, which also proves that her limbs are shorter, it automatically means that her limbs move faster than his do. If her limbs move faster than his, she has faster movement speeds than he does.Now if we were to go with your logic, that makes no sense at all, and say that Batman, who happens to be heavier, and larger, yet weaker than Gamora but has greater movement speeds than Gamora (again something that makes no sense at all) it would automatically make him stronger than she is, which we know is not the case.
I asked you to show me one scan of Batman doing the same thing to a character of Ronan's size and weight, but you can not, because he can not move that fast. Again, this is running, and not flying. Let's not lose sight of the fact, that Gamora does not fly.
Gamora has dodged lasers, Gamora made Venom look like he was moving in slow motion, and Venom can move as fast as Spider Man who happens to be faster than Batman, unless you want people to believe the same nonsense that Board Walker was going on about when they said that Batman can move at the speed of light. Is this something that you are also claiming? Let me know now so that I can ignore anything else that you post on the subject.
Thor is not portrayed as a speedster, or an acrobat with uncanny reflexes, and agility. We will never see these things from him unless he is fighting against a giant. This does not mean that he can not move across land at incredible rates of speed while running. Running in and of itself is movement speed, because the character would actually be moving, and not flying or levitating from one destination to the other.
Comics contradict themselves because it's part of the magic that makes for good fiction. The writers are not going to acknowledge everything that should occur in the real world, but whenever to want to, they can give the reader a glimpse of something that they are not normally known to do. Look at the Juggernaut for example. No one ever knew that he could run at over 500 MPH, but then we see that he was capable of those speeds.
Thanos is a character that has repeatedly shown great reaction speeds. He was unable to even touch Gamora. How fast was Gamora moving in that scene? Could she have been moving faster than Spider Man since we have seen her evade Venom who has been proven to be just as fast as Spider Man? Well I for one think that she is. Is Batman as fast as Spider Man? We saw Spider Man blitz Firelord, could Batman do that to a herald of Galactus, and make him seem like he was moving in slow motion? I think that Batman is fast, but I do not believe that he can generate that kind of speed.
Is Batman faster than Captain America at his prime? How about Daredevil, or the Black Panther? Could it be that he is just as fast as they are? Could it be that Gamora is actually faster than Batman? Could Venom, and Spider Man be faster than Batman? Like I said, Batman is fast, but there are different levels of speed.
We go by what is shown. Not what should happen.
If Batman moves faster than Gamora in comics then he will so in a forum fight. Characters will not operate above the level they have shown. That means Gamora would never move as fast as a bullet in a forum fight cause she never moved that fast in a comic. Batman has moved faster than a bullet in comics multiple times. So in a forum fight he will have the speed to react to Gamora's attacks. She doesn't attack faster than a bullet. So Batman in fine.
I can be difficult and argue Batman is stronger than Gamora because his speed feats require it. But you would dismiss it because Batman is a human.
Originally posted by h1a8
real world physics goes against what is shown though. You can't go against what is shown in favor of real world physics. Of course being stronger and the same size can make one move faster. But that isn't the case in comics, otherwise we would have to throw away a shitload of feats. All of Batman's feats would not be allowed since him moving that fast requires a strength beyond anything Gamora ever shown.We go by what is shown. Not what should happen.
If Batman moves faster than Gamora in comics then he will so in a forum fight. Characters will not operate above the level they have shown. That means Gamora would never move as fast as a bullet in a forum fight cause she never moved that fast in a comic. Batman has moved faster than a bullet in comics multiple times. So in a forum fight he will have the speed to react to Gamora's attacks. She doesn't attack faster than a bullet. So Batman in fine.I can be difficult and argue Batman is stronger than Gamora because his speed feats require it. But you would dismiss it because Batman is a human.
But I fail to see how batman has ever moved faster than Gamora when comparing her speed to someone as fast as Spider Man. So my guess is that you are claiming that Batman is in fact faster than Spider Man, and may as well be considered to be in a higher tier with no proof or sense to validate this stance. Batman is in the Captain America, Daredevil, Black Panther, Wildcat, etc tier. He is not in Spider Man tier in terms of speed. Comics aren't meant to make perfect sense, and contradictions are commonplace, but one thing is certain, Batman is not as fast as Spider Man.
Batman is a highly trained comic book peak human. Comic book peak humans are super human compared to real life people in just about every way. However, Gamora is, and has never been considered peak human. Even as a child, she was considered to be slightly above that level. Batman did not only train his body, but he trained his mind. It's like I said before, he can see things coming before they actually do by judging body language. I gave you an example before, but this is something that you casually ignored. In the very same comics that you sometimes want to lean on, it has been said time, and time again by even Batman's team mates that he doesn't actually have any powers, which he then turns around, and agrees to. So what then? Do you ignore what you don't like in the comics that you are only now leaning heavily on, or do you agree with them? Gamora's speed comes from her being a super powered being. Her skill allows her to bend situations to her favor when fighting. This is what batman does, but he has no actual powers by comic book standards.
Originally posted by Stoicspider man has the best speed feats. Better than both gamora and batman. Then comes batman then comes gamora.
But I fail to see how batman has ever moved faster than Gamora when comparing her speed to someone as fast as Spider Man. So my guess is that you are claiming that Batman is in fact faster than Spider Man, and may as well be considered to be in a higher tier with no proof or sense to validate this stance. Batman is in the Captain America, Daredevil, Black Panther, Wildcat, etc tier. He is not in Spider Man tier in terms of speed. Comics aren't meant to make perfect sense, and contradictions are commonplace, but one thing is certain, Batman is not as fast as Spider Man.Batman is a highly trained comic book peak human. Comic book peak humans are super human compared to real life people in just about every way. However, Gamora is, and has never been considered peak human. Even as a child, she was considered to be slightly above that level. Batman did not only train his body, but he trained his mind. It's like I said before, he can see things coming before they actually do by judging body language. I gave you an example before, but this is something that you casually ignored. In the very same comics that you sometimes want to lean on, it has been said time, and time again by even Batman's team mates that he doesn't actually have any powers, which he then turns around, and agrees to. So what then? Do you ignore what you don't like in the comics that you are only now leaning heavily on, or do you agree with them? Gamora's speed comes from her being a super powered being. Her skill allows her to bend situations to her favor when fighting. This is what batman does, but he has no actual powers by comic book standards.
You are ignoring the feats where Batman reacted after the attack was launched. There was no such thing as judging body language then. Batman basically moved after the attack was flying.
Originally posted by h1a8
spider man has the best speed feats. Better than both gamora and batman. Then comes batman then comes gamora.You are ignoring the feats where Batman reacted after the attack was launched. There was no such thing as judging body language then. Batman basically moved after the attack was flying.
Wrong. Venom is just as fast as Spider Man this has been seen many times in their encounters. however Gamora made Venom look slow, and inept when she pretty much clowned him recently. Batman is slower than all three. PIS happens in comics as well. A lot of batman's showings are actually PIS, but then again so are Captain America's. They are plot characters. taking plot out of the way leaves him looking very much like the peak human that he is.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
H1a8 should have just said "the twist is that in this thread, Batman wins"
Even with the slight handicap that he gave Batman, he would still lose. Gamora could literally take being stabbed through the torso, and take the sword away from him with her superior strength. She would heal in instants from it. Then what? You see, he's over his head, and even an inferior warrior than Gamora (Zealot) showed what would happen if batman fought someone of equal skill to him, but with superior stats. He lost his head in that mock battle. *Ref. Dreamwar.
Originally posted by Stoicyou don't read comics. Spidey is definitely faster than venom. There was a confrontation where this was portrayed. Also Spidey's feats are better. So no, venom isn't faster. And we go by feats in history and not a single showing.
Wrong. Venom is just as fast as Spider Man this has been seen many times in their encounters. however Gamora made Venom look slow, and inept when she pretty much clowned him recently. Batman is slower than all three. PIS happens in comics as well. A lot of batman's showings are actually PIS, but then again so are Captain America's. They are plot characters. taking plot out of the way leaves him looking very much like the peak human that he is.
Venom was able to tag Gamora though, although he has no skill in fighting.
Venom has the SS, so technically he shouldn't get hit by someone in the vicinity of his speed or slower unless it's a counter. Otherwise, venom is not fighting to the best of his abilities.
Originally posted by Stoicno, batman will slice limbs off. The moment she attacks.
Even with the slight handicap that he gave Batman, he would still lose. Gamora could literally take being stabbed through the torso, and take the sword away from him with her superior strength. She would heal in instants from it. Then what? You see, he's over his head, and even an inferior warrior than Gamora (Zealot) showed what would happen if batman fought someone of equal skill to him, but with superior stats. He lost his head in that mock battle. [b]*Ref. Dreamwar. [/B]
Originally posted by h1a8
no, batman will slice limbs off. The moment she attacks.
You do realize that 75-80% of the people believe that Gamora would win. Even a couple of the people that voted against her don't really believe that she would lose to Batman based on their responses or lack thereof. I proved to you that she is faster, stronger, more durable, more agile, and at the very least his equal in combat. She also has a super skeleton that he may lack the strength to actually cut through, and she has a healing factor that was compared to Wolverines. But there you go claiming that he slices her limbs off, while lacking the attributes to make that stance a guarantee. Could he win? Sure, but her chances of winning are about as great as the poll of votes in this thread.
Originally posted by h1a8
you don't read comics. Spidey is definitely faster than venom. There was a confrontation where this was portrayed. Also Spidey's feats are better. So no, venom isn't faster. And we go by feats in history and not a single showing.Venom was able to tag Gamora though, although he has no skill in fighting.
Venom has the SS, so technically he shouldn't get hit by someone in the vicinity of his speed or slower unless it's a counter. Otherwise, venom is not fighting to the best of his abilities.
Originally posted by Sam Z
Venom is as fast as Scarlet Spider...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6816565
Scarlet Spider was the original Spider Man in case you didn't know. He's basically the same speed as Spider Man.
Originally posted by Stoicand I can show you a scan of the real spiderman fighting venom and stating and being shown to be faster than him.
Scarlet Spider was the original Spider Man in case you didn't know. He's basically the same speed as Spider Man.
Like I said, Gamora wasn't shown faster just because she hit him. Slow beings have hit Superman. Venom didn't use SS so he wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities.
Originally posted by h1a8
and I can show you a scan of the real spiderman fighting venom and stating and being shown to be faster than him.Like I said, Gamora wasn't shown faster just because she hit him. Slow beings have hit Superman. Venom didn't use SS so he wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities.
Then you should do that, get that scans because from what I know most of the fights that they actually have had ended up with Venom hitting Spider Man as many times as Spider Man hit him. Perhaps you missed the part where I said that the Scarlet Spider is actually the original Spider Man, and that they are identical in speed?
What did the scan that I posted say about Venom, and Ben Reilly the original Spider Man? I show you proof, you show me BS. It's gotten to the point that people are jumping on their sock accounts to vote for Batman, but they don't seem to be able to back him.