Originally posted by Zenwolf
Ok see now that is more elaborate than a simple body glove.Alright, fair enough.
But damnit Bioware..../sigh, they are kinda making everything pointless in later eras with all this stuff that they just keep makting up.
Bioware's incessant need to have the best of everything and make their own era appear as the apex of everything is beyond obvious and to be honest lacks originality.
Originally posted by AncientPower
LeGenD, Lsu faced Orbalisk Bane whom was amped by both a nexus and a rage amp whilst she had a minor BM amp. Lsu was faster, more skilled and reacted faster than the Sith'ari could.
That "minor" BM amp enabled the Jedi to fight the Sith Lords effectively, they dropped like flies after the amplification stopped.
Lsu wouldn't have gone toe-to-toe with Bane without amplification from BM of her ally. Her performance is artificial due to this factor. In addition, Bane fought recklessly under the comfort of the protection offered by orbalisks, if he had fought with precision, he would have done much better.
In contrast, Malgus is going to fight with precision and masterfully.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Now of course comes the part where Lsu had 'help', Jothun is featless and required protection from Lsu which distracted from her effort. She even told Farfalla that he was simply getting in her way and Farfalla was an excellent duelist himself.The two of them were the only direct aid in her effort to kill Bane but said aid was mediocre at best.
So essentially we saw that Raskta Lsu + BM Amp > Darth Bane + Orbalisk Armor + Rage Amp + Nexus Amp, she was soundly beating him and the only attacks he ever connected was a Force Push and an elbow.
The Jedi performed well with amplification of BM. They ended up dead after that support was disrupted. Simple.
Originally posted by AncientPower
If you are telling me Hope! Malgus was greatly superior to ROT! Bane then I don't even know what to say.Lsu is far from fodder, I suggest re-reading Rule of Two.
Malgus, as of Return, was already among the greatest warriors of the Empire. As of Hope, he tolerated cliff-shattering raw burst of power from Satele Shan and resultant injuries and destroyed a Vader-esque opponent soon afterwards. As of Deceived, he cut a swath through Jedi formations inside the Jedi Temple and humiliated powerful opponents in battles. As of Cold War, he became Emperor for a while.
Malgus is a TIER 9 within 1 - 10 TIER levels.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Darach was excellent, but between both Lord Vindican and apprentice Malgus he simply got exhausted after impaling the former.
Even before the Great War, Malgus was widely regarded as one of the greatest warriors in the Empire.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
So both factors.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Besides the argument here is not if Malgus is greater in the Force but whether or not his Force prowess makes up for the vast desparity in dueling ability, it simply doesn't.
Lsu have poor defensive abilities. Malgus may just snap her neck.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I am not going to take Malgus' post-Hope feats into account, especially when rage amps are involved.
Post-Hope? They are not. This events of The Third Lesson occurred an hour or two after the events of Hope cinematic on Aldeeran.
More importantly, Malgus was actually disadvantaged and mortally wounded during the events of The Third Lesson.
As for rage:
Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.
He'd been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he'd failed to properly evaluate the Jedi's power. He'd surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi's eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged.
He closed the distance between them rapidly. The red line of Malgus's lightsaber moved so quickly it blurred into a red smear. The Jedi parried again and again, the sizzle of blade on blade resounding through the ruins. Malgus's onslaught - a blizzard of slashes, cuts, and stabs - allowed the Jedi no room for a counterattack. The Jedi retreated before the offensive, desperately intercepting Malgus's blows.
Malgus could have ended the Jedi in any of several ways, but he needed the satisfaction of a lightsaber kill.
Taken from The Third Lesson
So where is the rage?
Also, rage isn't a technique. It is an emotion and Sith frequently use emotions to fuel their power. Treating Malgus's rage as a special development is silly.
The battle did not take place on Lehon but Tython, in Belia Darzu's fortress, a nexus.
No the Jedi died because of BM withdrawal (nausea) and Zannah's mental attack on Sarro Xaj. This resulted in his death followed quickly by Zannah killing Lsu from behind, employing a Spell of Concealment to cover her presence.
Battle Meditation from Worror was diminished because the nexus itself was of the Dark Side, I shouldn't need to tell you what that does to a light sider. You should however take into account that both Zannah and Bane were nexus amplified, Bane himself had Orbalisk protection and rage to add to that.
Malgus as of Hope is not among the mightiest of Sith, one of the mightiest among his Empire sure but not overall.
Emperor Malgus is a mid tier 8 at best, he is not superior to Revan whom is top tier 8.
Darach was probably the best lightsaber duelist of his day as a Battlemaster, poor energy reserves on his part sealed his fate, he may well have defeated both of them given more reserves.
No Lsu caught off guard by an amplified Bane might (and I emphasize might) have been killed by a telekinetic push on his part due to the environment.
Her Force defenses are average but claming Sith can just snap her neck is contradictory to the fact that Lsu has killed 100,000(?) Sith in the field and if it was as easy as you imply she never would have gotten that far. Amped Bane himself clearly couldn't and Hope Malgus doesn't hold a candle to him.
Post means afterward and this is afterward.
The rage is obvious and blatantly apparent, the rage allowed him to stop himself from being crushed by two buildings and then he channeled it with his will, blitzing the Jedi with speed feats he has never displayed before that engagement.
Rage is not a technique, it is an involuntary state of mind he was thrown into upon nearly dying. The statement prior to that where he is on a shuttle makes it excessively clear how angry he was.
He was amplified by his anger and this enabled above standard feats for him. Again if he was that powerful as standard then he would have telekinetically decimated his opponents with tree trunks and boulders, yet he didn't.
@Ancient Power
The text frequently mentions battle meditation as an important factor in the duel, but completely fails to mention the nexus altering the outcome of the fight. Do you know why? Because the battle meditation is far more significant and potent.
And as far as Johun impeding her efforts, Johun impeded Sarro Xaj, but his assistance was put to great use by Raskta.
"And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage.”-ROT
And Raskta driving Bane back hard was likely a tactic of subterfuge on Bane's part to draw their attention away from Worror, given that Bane was an expert in deception and manipulation.
"Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought. Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room."-ROT
As you can see later on, Raskta needs the help of Farfalla and Othone to drive Bane into a defensive stance.
"Raskta's blades hummed and sang as she engaged him again, determined to keep him from reaching Master Worror at all costs. He's too strong, Farfalla realized, even as he ran to help her. Both physically and in the power of the dark side. It's like trying to fight a force of nature.
...
Together the three of them held the Sith Lord at bay: Farfalla on the left flank, Johun on the right, and Raskta in the center. Between blocks and parries they cut and stabbed at his face, their combined efforts finally forcing their enemy into a defensive stance."-ROT
Keep in mind, despite this, I likely don't have Raskta Lsu lower than you do, I just have Bane higher than you do.
Anyways, Raskta is not only a great duelist in the Jedi Order, she is THE greatest duelist in the Jedi Order, and one of the few in a Jedi history of tens of thousands to attain the rank of weaponsmaster.
"Raskta Lsu was named in honor of Raskta Fenni, a noted Echani duelist, and lived up to her name by becoming the Jedi Order's most skilled martial artist. She was one of the few who ever attained the title of Jedi Weapons Master. She spent her life studying ways in which The Force could be used to hone her skills.”-Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
I also find Raskta's speed to be more impressive than that of Aryn Leneer's, who was outpacing Malgus even when subtracting the effects of the battle meditation.
Malgus's MO against Jedi at this point in his life appears to be charge them and cut them down with his blade, so I would agree with you that Raskta's greater speed and skill would allow her to cut Malgus down before Malgus brings his force powers to bear.
Originally posted by AncientPower
The battle did not take place on Lehon but Tython, in Belia Darzu's fortress, a nexus.
The word nexus is thrown around cheaply. That fortress is not a nexus.
Originally posted by AncientPower
No the Jedi died because of BM withdrawal (nausea) and Zannah's mental attack on Sarro Xaj. This resulted in his death followed quickly by Zannah killing Lsu from behind, employing a Spell of Concealment to cover her presence.
For example:
It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel.
Another:
Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.
Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two
More importantly:
Battle meditation required Master Worror's complete focus; there was no chance for him to mount any type of defense. If Bane cut him down, the others would lose the only advantage that gave them any chance of surviving the encounter.
Taken from Darth Bane: Rule of Two
The Sith focused on disrupting the BM effect because it was the main advantage the Jedi had. Once BM was no more in the picture, the Jedi became vulnerable and fell easily.
When Bane got the opportunity to attack and kill Worror, another Jedi saved Worror but disrupted the BM in the process. After this development, things went south for the Jedi.
As for Zannah, she got the opportunity to unleash sorcery against the Jedi she was fighting after the cessation of BM; the Jedi lost his effectiveness and became reluctant, providing an opening to Zannah to exploit.
Clear?
Originally posted by AncientPower
Battle Meditation from Worror was diminished because the nexus itself was of the Dark Side, I shouldn't need to tell you what that does to a light sider. You should however take into account that both Zannah and Bane were nexus amplified, Bane himself had Orbalisk protection and rage to add to that.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Malgus as of Hope is not among the mightiest of Sith, one of the mightiest among his Empire sure but not overall.
Do not forget that Malgus had proved his mettle by defeating Darach prior to events of Hope.
Lsu is outgunned in this contest, badly.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Emperor Malgus is a mid tier 8 at best, he is not superior to Revan whom is top tier 8.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Darach was probably the best lightsaber duelist of his day as a Battlemaster, poor energy reserves on his part sealed his fate, he may well have defeated both of them given more reserves.
But Malgus wasn't lacking in power and competence either. His victory isn't a matter of luck.
Originally posted by AncientPower
No Lsu caught off guard by an amplified Bane might (and I emphasize might) have been killed by a telekinetic push on his part due to the environment.
She is really lacking in the aspect of command of the Force. She is likely to be overwhelmed by Malgus's powers. The latter may just snap her neck.
Lsu's performance against Bane is absolutely artificial. She wouldn't do so well under fair circumstances.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Her Force defenses are average but claming Sith can just snap her neck is contradictory to the fact that Lsu has killed 100,000(?) Sith in the field and if it was as easy as you imply she never would have gotten that far. Amped Bane himself clearly couldn't and Hope Malgus doesn't hold a candle to him.
You just don't realize the power of Malgus properly.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Post means afterward and this is afterward.
Do you think that Malgus became stronger in an hour or 2 after his confrontation with Satele Shan and Jace Malcom? Where is your common sense?
Originally posted by AncientPower
The rage is obvious and blatantly apparent, the rage allowed him to stop himself from being crushed by two buildings and then he channeled it with his will, blitzing the Jedi with speed feats he has never displayed before that engagement.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Rage is not a technique, it is an involuntary state of mind he was thrown into upon nearly dying. The statement prior to that where he is on a shuttle makes it excessively clear how angry he was.
Of-course, Malgus would be angry after the bad experience. However, he was also mortally wounded and not in good shape. He suppressed the pain with his anger and took a great risk by fighting Jedi again.
Originally posted by AncientPower
He was amplified by his anger and this enabled above standard feats for him. Again if he was that powerful as standard then he would have telekinetically decimated his opponents with tree trunks and boulders, yet he didn't.
But Malgus disarmed Shan too and forced her on her knees. However, it was at this moment when Malcom came back and turned the tide of the battle.
You can say that Malgus made a mistake of not killing Malcom himself and paid the price for this error. However, his power and competence was not an issue.
I don't understand what you see in Hope cinematic. I see an error on part of Malgus.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Anyways, Raskta is not only a great duelist in the Jedi Order, she is THE greatest duelist in the Jedi Order, and one of the few in a Jedi history of tens of thousands to attain the rank of weaponsmaster.
"Raskta Lsu was named in honor of Raskta Fenni, a noted Echani duelist, and lived up to her name by becoming the Jedi Order's most skilled martial artist. She was one of the few who ever attained the title of Jedi Weapons Master. She spent her life studying ways in which The Force could be used to hone her skills.”-Complete Star Wars EncyclopediaI also find Raskta's speed to be more impressive than that of Aryn Leneer's, who was outpacing Malgus even when subtracting the effects of the battle meditation.
Malgus's MO against Jedi at this point in his life appears to be charge them and cut them down with his blade, so I would agree with you that Raskta's greater speed and skill would allow her to cut Malgus down before Malgus brings his force powers to bear.
Kolar was also counted among the best swordsman of the Order. And yet...
You see! Martial skills are not everything. For a Jedi, command of the Force is everything.
Lsu really lacked in command of the Force aspect.
And Malgus isn't lacking in martial skills either. What he did to Darach, he can do to Lsu as well.
Tbh, the issue I have is that...they were going for such a dramatic execution for Jace and it's like....wtf? The sith had no problems just cutting down the other troops like nothing, but Jace? No they had to slowly drag him across the field to a guy who slowly ignited his saber...I actually find that scene kinda laughable, because it was taking place in the middle of a battle.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Right. Lets rely upon BM enhanced performance of Lsu to vouch for her. 🙄
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You see! Martial skills are not everything. For a Jedi, command of the Force is everything.Lsu really lacked in command of the Force aspect.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Tbh, the issue I have is that...they were going for such a dramatic execution for Jace and it's like....wtf? The sith had no problems just cutting down the other troops like nothing, but Jace? No they had to slowly drag him across the field to a guy who slowly ignited his saber...I actually find that scene kinda laughable, because it was taking place in the middle of a battle.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
That quote calling her the greatest martial artist in the order does not refer to her battle meditation.
I am referring to her performance against Bane, it is BM fueled and not representative of her original performance.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
It's not that she lacked command of the force, it's that she geared it entirely towards her abilities in physical combat rather than force combat.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
If you are trying to refer to her capabilities in force combat, ie. telekinesis, then that's one thing. But if you are trying to say her capabilities in dueling are somehow diminished by this "lack of command of the force" then you are sorely mistaken.
Apart from the technical skill; speed, reflexes, emotions, and precognition are important determinants. Their might be additional variables. Command of the Force and raw power influence all of these variables.
Its not that Malgus would be great at telekinesis but lacking in speed. He will be great in both because of his command of the Force and raw power.
People should understand the implications of command of the Force and raw power. Otherwise, we get statements like Kolar > Darach and Lsu > Malgus.
Except Raskta Lsu doesn't lack command of the force when it comes to speed, reflexes, and precognition. She spent her whole life studying how she could use the force to hone her skills.
"She spent her life studying ways in which The Force could be used to hone her skills."-CSWE
She simply isn't very good in force combat because she lacks skill in using the force in that way.
"A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks."-ROT
It's a matter of specialization.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Except Raskta Lsu doesn't lack command of the force when it comes to speed, reflexes, and precognition. She spent her whole life studying how she could use the force to hone her skills.She simply isn't very good in force combat because she lacks skill in using the force in that way.
She has raw power and command of the Force. So does Malgus. Difference is that Malgus is relatively stronger and more capable Force-user.