Originally posted by Sinious
Why would Vitiate have trouble beating Kun in a force fight? Revan has better showings than Kun in the force and Vitiate makes Revan his b*tch every time they encounter.
I said he has trouble with the duo, not Kun, and Revan doesn't have better offensive Force showings than Kun, who's easily destroyed Freedon Nadd's spirit before reaching his own prime.
Emperor Vitiate have sufficient raw power and command of Sith Sorcery to single-handedly challenge and defeat even a Strike Team of powerful opponents, he have some solid showings in this respect.
Exar and Ulic are absolutely vulnerable to telepathic subjugation from Emperor Vitiate, to begin with. Should this pressure mount on them, it is likely to disorient the Strike Team and Exar and Ulic will become vulnerable to further exploitation. At this point, Emperor Vitiate have the option to use his Force Drain powers to siphon energy of both to fuel his own, weakening the Strike Team even further and/or just strike the opponents with deadly force to eliminate both.
Originally posted by SunRazer
When has Vitiate used Drain in combat?
However, Emperor Vitiate drained Revan, irrespective of Revan being an unwilling subject to serve him.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not that it matters, considering they're immune to Drain anyway.
1. Hardly. Bane knew the technique but claimed it was virtually impossible to use combatively.
Vitiate using Drain Knowledge on Revan isn't compatible with a fight, where he never Drained Revan.
2. The Exile is immune.
That being said, Ulic and Exar know techniques to block life-siphoning/harvesting powers.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Hardly. Bane knew the technique but claimed it was virtually impossible to use combatively.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate using Drain Knowledge on Revan isn't compatible with a fight, where he never Drained Revan.
Emperor Vitiate is stated to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. He is likely to have a wide range of offensive options to consider in combat situations. Just because we don't see him performing action (A) in a duel, doesn't means he cannot.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. The Exile is immune.
Originally posted by SunRazer
That being said, Ulic and Exar know techniques to block life-siphoning/harvesting powers.
1. I'm aware of what Force Drain is, you don't need to quote wiki for me.
The limitations are certainly applicable when Vitiate has never displayed it mid-duel.
2. By that logic, "just because Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma haven't displayed Force Drain immunity in a fight, doesn't mean they can't".
3. Based on Nihilus failing to Drain her, and supplementary sources that confirm this.
4. Yes, they do. They don't need one when Vitiate hasn't demonstrated Drain in combat - his MO is TK and Lightning.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. I'm aware of what Force Drain is, you don't need to quote wiki for me.The limitations are certainly applicable when Vitiate has never displayed it mid-duel.
By that logic, Emperor Vitiate haven't choked someone to death during a confrontation as well. So should we assume that Emperor Vitiate cannot choke anybody?
Emperor Vitiate is much more powerful and masterful in the ways of the dark side then Darth Bane.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. By that logic, "just because Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma haven't displayed Force Drain immunity in a fight, doesn't mean they can't".
As for Exar, I have clearly stated earlier that he is not implied to have the ability to resist Force Drain powers. Provide evidence to the contrary if you think that I am wrong.
Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Based on Nihilus failing to Drain her, and supplementary sources that confirm this.
Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Yes, they do. They don't need one when Vitiate hasn't demonstrated Drain in combat - his MO is TK and Lightning.
Emperor haven't Force-choked an opponent either, doesn't means he cannot.
Emperor Vitiate have demonstrated the capability to drain an unwilling opponent (i.e. Revan) and this is sufficient indicator of his capability to drain his opponents in combat situations, should he try.
Also, Emperor Vitiate knows much more then TK and Lightning.
In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Here is an example of a mysterious power of Emperor Vitiate:
He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
1. Yes, you are. "Spectrum of offensive and defensive powers" is basically what the wiki says. Whatever.
2. That's a subset of TK. Drain is it's own power.
3. What do you mean not foolproof? When has it ever failed?
Exar logically knows the same technique since he was the one who rediscovered the Dark Reaper and brought it back into use.
4. You said nobody is immune to Drain. The Exile is.
5. I don't doubt that Vitiate knows Drain, but he doesn't use it in fights. I'm asking you to prove that he does. Choke is an application of TK, so yes, he can use it. That, and HoT and Revan were powerful enough to not be Choked.
Excuse me, but I've played SWTOR (Jedi Knight), read TOR: Revan, and read The Old Republic Encyclopedia. I've also already read that thread. I'm aware of what Vitiate can do.
I said his MO (Modus Operandi) is TK and Lightning, which means those are his go-to powers and the ones he primarily uses. Palpatine knows every power in existence, but his MO is Lightning and TK as well.
Your examples do not confirm combat-applicable mastery of Drain, either. Drain isn't among the most uncharted depths of the dark side, it was a commonly mastered technique among Ancient Sith, as well as Revan and the Sith Triumvirate.
Vitiate displaying an unspecific ritual doesn't have anything to do with Drain either.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Yes, you are. "Spectrum of offensive and defensive powers" is basically what the wiki says. Whatever.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. That's a subset of TK. Drain is it's own power.
Originally posted by SunRazer
3. What do you mean not foolproof? When has it ever failed?
As far as I am aware, Ulic taught Anakin Skywalker to resist the effects of Dark Reaper, but this was a temporary solution to the problem.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Exar logically knows the same technique since he was the one who rediscovered the Dark Reaper and brought it back into use.
Originally posted by SunRazer
4. You said nobody is immune to Drain. The Exile is.
Immortality is another condition that can serve as a counter to the effects of Force Drain powers.
Ulic and Exar are neither Wounds and nor immortals. At the most, Ulic have knowledge of a technique which he can use to resist the effects of Force Drain powers for a while.
Clear enough?
Originally posted by SunRazer
5. I don't doubt that Vitiate knows Drain, but he doesn't use it in fights. I'm asking you to prove that he does. Choke is an application of TK, so yes, he can use it. That, and HoT and Revan were powerful enough to not be Choked.
Here is another example:
Lord Dramath intended to judge the child’s power to determine if he was worthy of serving the Sith Lord, or if he should simply be executed. But Tenebrae had no intention of serving—or of dying. When they met face-to-face, Tenebrae proved the stronger. Only ten years old, he stripped his father of his power and his mind.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Emperor Vitiate performed a complex offensive action - combination of Sever Force and Telepathic powers - to subdue Lord Dramath, in a confrontation.
Now do you think that Emperor Vitiate cannot perform Sever Force or an attack of matching complexity in a confrontation again just because he utilized these actions only once, based on existing evidence?
HoT and Revan are powerful enough not to be choked? Based on what? They might be able to deny a kill but they can be locked in a choke by a stronger Force-user. And these two aren't the only individuals whom Emperor Vitiate have fought.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Excuse me, but I've played SWTOR (Jedi Knight), read TOR: Revan, and read The Old Republic Encyclopedia. I've also already read that thread. I'm aware of what Vitiate can do.I said his MO (Modus Operandi) is TK and Lightning, which means those are his go-to powers and the ones he primarily uses. Palpatine knows every power in existence, but his MO is Lightning and TK as well.
2. You have read so much and yet still have such a limited view of things under discussion.
For a versus contest, I don't stick with MO or PIS; I look at the big picture.
Even if we just consider Force Lightning only, Ulic and Exar are still doomed.
1. Drain and TK are separate powers.
2. It succeeded when Ulic and Exar could operate the Dark Reaper without dying, LMAO.
3. Resurrecting the Dark Reaper doesn't require you to use Drain. It requires you to survive the Drain, though.
4. Even if it was "a while", it's sufficient, especially since Vitiate doesn't have a habit of using Drain in fights anyway.
5. You haven't provided any credibility to your claim whatsoever. Knowing a power and consistently using it in a fight is completely different.
6. Sever Force =/= Drain.
7. Based on the fact that they weren't dominated by Choke, LOL.
8. He did as of DE, I meant.
9. Hardly a "poor deduction", except by your standards. Kun is immensely powerful and even Vitiate fears him, or would be right to, anyway.
10. I think Ulic and Exar's lightsabers would function just fine in that circumstance.
Also, Ulic's repelled capital-ship damaging lasers with Barrier, and that was before he gained considerable power upon becoming a Sith Lord. Kun's Force Blasts would likely hurt Vitiate, too.
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Drain and TK are separate powers.
Originally posted by SunRazer
2. It succeeded when Ulic and Exar could operate the Dark Reaper without dying, LMAO.
Originally posted by SunRazer
3. Resurrecting the Dark Reaper doesn't require you to use Drain. It requires you to survive the Drain, though.
Originally posted by SunRazer
4. Even if it was "a while", it's sufficient, especially since Vitiate doesn't have a habit of using Drain in fights anyway.
Originally posted by SunRazer
5. You haven't provided any credibility to your claim whatsoever. Knowing a power and consistently using it in a fight is completely different.
What is the difference between a combat situation and performing an action against an opposing individual? Nothing.
Originally posted by SunRazer
6. Sever Force =/= Drain.
I am just pointing out that Emperor Vitiate have a wide range of offensive options to consider against the Strike Team.
Originally posted by SunRazer
7. Based on the fact that they weren't dominated by Choke, LOL.
Originally posted by SunRazer
8. He did as of DE, I meant.
Originally posted by SunRazer
9. Hardly a "poor deduction", except by your standards. Kun is immensely powerful and even Vitiate fears him, or would be right to, anyway.
Emperor Vitiate is not afraid of any Jedi and Sith, as far as I am aware.
In-fact:
No Sith has generated as much curiosity, frustration, and fear among the Jedi as the Empire's dread ruler.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
&
For generations, the Emperor would remain withdrawn from society. When he finally appeared, the Emperor spoke only to the Dark Council, reducing the most powerful Sith in the Empire to trembling sycophants in his presence.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Emperor Vitiate intimidated even the mighty Revan.
In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?
Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.
Despite this, he still felt a chill in his gut when he saw again the enormous durasteel doors of the throne room. They were shut, of course, but he knew all too well what lay beyond.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Originally posted by SunRazer
10. I think Ulic and Exar's lightsabers would function just fine in that circumstance.
Revan figured out that his lightsaber-augmented defenses won't be enough to stop a storm of lightning from Emperor Vitiate.
Even some of the Emperor Vitiate's inferiors were able to overwhelm lightsaber augmented-defenses of powerful Force-users with powerful bursts of Force lightning such as Darth Malgus and Exal Kressh. I believe that Darth Thanaton and Darth Nox could also pull off this feat.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Also, Ulic's repelled capital-ship damaging lasers with Barrier, and that was before he gained considerable power upon becoming a Sith Lord. Kun's Force Blasts would likely hurt Vitiate, too.
And Sith Sorcery is much more dangerous then firearms and lasers.
As for the Force Blasts, Emperor Vitiate can unleash them with bare hands as apparent from his showings against some Jedi (including HoT).
As for the defenses, Emperor Vitiate have successfully tanked every kind of power unleashed on him by his opponents. His defenses are bolstered by his condition.
Emperor Vitiate lost in a battle only when he was vulnerable.
You really think that you need to tell me this?
Yes, I do. You denied it.
Hmm, provide details of this development.
What development? And this is entirely off-panel and just mentioned by sources, we haven't seen them do it in person.
Resurrecting or operating? Dark Reaper is a superweapon, not a being.
Both, because it was inactive and resurrected in that it was reactivated.
Emperor Vitiate have other options to disorient the Strike Team; his telepathic powers and sorcery.
He has other powers to use against Kun and Qel-Droma, too.
Still haven't seen him using Drain in a fight.
Emperor not just have knowledge of Force Drain, he have performed it against both willing and unwilling individuals. Your point is moot. What is the difference between a combat situation and performing an action against an opposing individual? Nothing.
The difference is that he doesn't use it in a fight, meaning that it doesn't matter here. He might use it for say, one round out of ten, but if his track record against multiple types of opponents indicates that he doesn't use it, then suggesting that it's likely he'll use it against Kun and Qel-Droma is reaching.
Besides, if he only uses it once out of ten rounds, then the defense technique would certainly work.
This is argument for the sake of argument. I never implied this. I am just pointing out that Emperor Vitiate have a wide range of offensive options to consider against the Strike Team.
Yes, you did imply it. You said it lends further credibility to the notion of him using Drain in a fight, which it doesn't.
Genius, Emperor Vitiate did not attempt to choke them at any point. Your point is moot.
You mean because he couldn't.
Emperor Vitiate is not afraid of any Jedi and Sith, as far as I am aware.
Vitiate causing fear doesn't mean he doesn't fear things - he fears death. As for fearing the ancient Sith:
The Emperor knew the spirits of the ancient Sith Lords could be a threat to his power when he returned to the known galaxy a century later…- Timeline 7: Peace for the Republic?
And Kun's canonically more powerful than any of the ancient Sith. Even if you take SOR into account, he's at least on par with Hord/Ragnos/Sadow, whom Vitiate considered threats to his power. And Kun's still likely more powerful than any of them.
Lightsaber-augmented defenses have limits too. Revan figured out that his lightsaber-augmented defenses won't be enough to stop a storm of lightning from Emperor Vitiate.
Right, except the Strike Team, most of whom don't compare to Kun and Ulic, lasted quite a while against Vitiate's Storm that way.
Not to mention that if Vitiate tried building up Storm, Kun can unleash Blasts on him.
Exar did that, not Ulic.
Umm.... no.
And Sith Sorcery is much more dangerous then firearms and lasers.
I was responding to the point about Lightning, so this is a red herring.
As for the Force Blasts, Emperor Vitiate can unleash them with bare hands as apparent from his showings against some Jedi (including HoT).
Good for him. Displaying a power isn't the same as displaying a defense against it - after all, Traya had no issues displaying Drain, but when Nihilus and Sion turned it on her she got her shit shoveled up her ass.
As for the defenses, Emperor Vitiate have successfully tanked every kind of power unleashed on him by his opponents. His defenses are bolstered by his condition.
Too bad that Exar Kun's Force Blasts were never unleashed on Vitiate before, then.
Emperor Vitiate lost in a battle only when he was vulnerable
Ulic Qel-Droma hasn't lost a battle either.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, I do. You denied it.
This is my point:
Telekinesis represents a spectrum of powers/actions. Similarly, Force Drain represents a spectrum of powers/actions.
Both represent a different set of abilities but both are not a 'single' power each.
Originally posted by SunRazer
What development? And this is entirely off-panel and just mentioned by sources, we haven't seen them do it in person.
And here is the evidence of Ulic's limited capability at resisting Force Drain powers:
"I can teach to harness the power of the Force around you, making you immune to the Dark Reaper's effect, for a short time. But this knowledge comes with a risk."
🙂
Originally posted by SunRazer
Both, because it was inactive and resurrected in that it was reactivated.
Originally posted by SunRazer
He has other powers to use against Kun and Qel-Droma, too.Still haven't seen him using Drain in a fight.
Performing an action in a fight is same as performing it in another situation. The difference is that in a fight, the target is 'expected' to resist. In other situations, the opponent may be caught by surprise.
ANALOGY:
If I am strong enough to throw a stone, I can do it in both normal and confrontational scenarios. My 'ability' to throw a stone is much more relevant then the scenario itself.
---
Emperor Vitiate successfully subjected Revan (an enemy) to his Force Drain powers from lightyears distance but Revan attempted to circumvent the effects of such powers by utilizing the Force Ghost of Meetra Surik as his "energy reserve." While this is not a face-to-face confrontation, it is still a confrontation. The Emperor's ability to use his Force Drain powers against an 'opponent' is amply demonstrated in this case.
Clear?
Originally posted by SunRazer
The difference is that he doesn't use it in a fight, meaning that it doesn't matter here. He might use it for say, one round out of ten, but if his track record against multiple types of opponents indicates that he doesn't use it, then suggesting that it's likely he'll use it against Kun and Qel-Droma is reaching.
As for likelihood of using a power; we, as neutral observers, are not in the position to determine Emperor's decision-making ourselves. We, as neutral observers, need to keep all possibilities in mind for a neutral versus scenario.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Besides, if he only uses it once out of ten rounds, then the defense technique would certainly work.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yes, you did imply it. You said it lends further credibility to the notion of him using Drain in a fight, which it doesn't.
Originally posted by SunRazer
You mean because he couldn't.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate causing fear doesn't mean he doesn't fear things - he fears death. As for fearing the ancient Sith:
Considering someone a threat and fearing someone are not necessarily mutually-exclusive reactions.
ANALOGY
Suppose that you and me are two combatants. I may consider you a threat or competitor but I may not be hesitant to challenge you in a fight if I am confident in my abilities.
Originally posted by SunRazer
And Kun's canonically more powerful than any of the ancient Sith. Even if you take SOR into account, he's at least on par with Hord/Ragnos/Sadow, whom Vitiate considered threats to his power. And Kun's still likely more powerful than any of them.
Revan > Sadow and Ragnos, IMO.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Right, except the Strike Team, most of whom don't compare to Kun and Ulic, lasted quite a while against Vitiate's Storm that way.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not to mention that if Vitiate tried building up Storm, Kun can unleash Blasts on him.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Umm.... no.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I was responding to the point about Lightning, so this is a red herring.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Good for him. Displaying a power isn't the same as displaying a defense against it - after all, Traya had no issues displaying Drain, but when Nihilus and Sion turned it on her she got her shit shoveled up her ass.Too bad that Exar Kun's Force Blasts were never unleashed on Vitiate before, then.
On average, Force-users have to rely on their own talents to defend themselves from external threats. In comparison, Emperor Vitiate's immortality bolstered his defensive abilities.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Ulic Qel-Droma hasn't lost a battle either.
Originally posted by carthage
Even if it was for only a "short time", Vitiate's never shown any aptitude for force drain ergo its pointless that you're suggesting he can use it. Its not hard to follow, man.
Example 1:
Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Example 2:
REVAN COULD FEEL THE EMPEROR FEEDING ON HIM, drawing on his power to sate his endless hunger.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Example 3:
The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Don't have time to respond to the same thing over and over again, so my response will be shorter.
When have I claimed that TK and Force Drain are same powers?
lol That's not what I accused you of. However, TK and Drain are completely different powers, hence your comparisons of Choke and Drain are irrelevant.
You mentioned that both Exar and Ulic had experiences with the Dark Reaper, I want to know the details of these developments for knowledge basis.
It's just backstory - that they revived and used it. To have used it, though, they would have to have been immune to its effect, since it harvests anything in its vicinity.
And here is the evidence of Ulic's limited capability at resisting Force Drain powers:
A limited time is more than sufficient, considering Vitiate never uses Drain in combat, and if he did, he would only use it once - should it fail, I highly doubt he would repeat that same power.
Performing an action in a fight is same as performing it in another situation. The difference is that in a fight, the target is 'expected' to resist. In other situations, the opponent may be caught by surprise.ANALOGY:
lol Your analogy doesn't work because Drain is a complicated power which is actually difficult to utilize, whereas hurling a rock is something that everybody and their grandmother could do.
As for likelihood of using a power; we, as neutral observers, are not in the position to determine Emperor's decision-making ourselves. We, as neutral observers, need to keep all possibilities in mind for a neutral versus scenario.
lol We can infer how often he would use it based on his track record. In other words, he won't, or extremely rarely, in which case Ulic's technique would counter it.
What do you think about Tulak Hord?Revan > Sadow and Ragnos, IMO.
Not necessarily, and there's numerous aspects to each character. For instance, Sadow's Force knowledge outstrips Revan's, as does his use of Sorcery and Alchemy, but Revan is more battle-tested and has techniques like Battle Precognition to afford him the edge in direct combat. That being said, Sadow and Ragnos's hype as swordsmen based on the SWTOR website and Kreia's claim (which Avellone has confirmed to be accurate) makes them roughly equal with him in sheer prowess with a blade - however, a lightsaber is more practical than a Sith warblade (which is more or less directly confirmed by the TOR Encyclopedia), and Revan is just more combat-tested. I doubt Revan's directly more powerful than Sadow or Ragnos, either, but his powers are generally more combat-applicable.
Tulak's a better swordsman than Revan, though, and just as combat-tested.
The individuals of the referred Jedi Strike Team differed from each other in talents, capabilities, power, and accomplishments, but all met the same fate; defeat.
And as I said, they don't compare to Kun or Ulic. At that point in time, at least. And they still lasted a fairly long amount of time - imagine how long Kun and Ulic would last, not to mention that they wouldn't be as strained and would be potentially able to hurl Blasts and the like in retaliation.
Emperor Vitiate can disorient the Strike Team beforehand with his telepathic powers.
He did that, like, once, in the Revan novel.
Not sure how well it'd work, though. Kun might be able to break out of the telepathic trauma via Scream like Bane did in DoE, but he could get disoriented.
As I said, there's options for both teams to win.
Ok? Evidence?
There's a respect thread for Qel-Droma on the Internet, you can find the feat there.
Are you implying that Ulic can handle Emperor Vitiates' FLS? He cannot.
His Barrier would last against Vitiate's Force Lightning for some time, yes.
Emperor Vitiate's immortality itself represents a layer of defense against external threats.[QUOTE]On average, Force-users have to rely on their own talents to defend themselves from external threats. In comparison, Emperor Vitiate's immortality bolstered his defensive abilities.
Sion was immortal, too, but he was still affected by basic powers.
Ulic, is still, not as much tested in combat as Emperor Vitiate.
LOL. Vitiate is a scholar, not a warrior. His power is immense, hence why he sees it through his three battles, but those are the only combative situations he's been in to my knowledge, whereas Ulic was tested in combat throughout his life. He is far more combat-tested than Vitiate is - Vitiate is just fortunate that he has a huge reservoir of Force power to fall back on.