Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Vitiate.

Not really. Also it was a ritual that he needed 8000 other Sith to do. It's not relevant to combat.

I saw a quote the other day that said it was among the most powerful Sith too, or something like that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really. Also it was a ritual that he needed 8000 other Sith to do.

The ritual was performed to create an enormous nexus of the dark side on Medriaas. Vitiate was the only participant who successfully utilized this nexus for personal gains; the nexus provided Vitiate the opportunity to consume the entire biota of Medriaas.

Legend, Vitiate's drain was indeed the most potent one. Vitiate had more destructive results in Natemha than Nihilus did in Katarr. However, you gotta admit that Nihilus got those results with less effort and his drain is surely more combat applicable.

@Legend -

You didn't understand my intended point then. I will give it a try again.

My argument is that just because Vitiate didn't choke an opponent in a documented confrontation, doesn't means that he cannot do so. Similarly, just because Vitiate haven't attacked an opponent with his Force Drain powers in a documented confrontation, doesn't means he cannot do so. No rocket science here.

A Force-user, who is arguably the greatest master of the dark side, cannot perform choke or drain his opponents in a confrontation? Makes no sense, IMO.

The word confrontation itself is meaningless, ability (strength) and talent (skill) to perform an action, are the real determinants of the ability to perform an action.

He isn't arguably the most powerful master of the Dark Side - not even Sidious is.

What's another determinant is the ability to do so whilst under the strain of combat, especially with another person attacking you at the same time that you're trying to Drain somebody else. As you said, no rocket science here. I hope you understand that I don't intend to claim that Vitiate simply cannot perform Drain, but that he would only do it in morals off because his entire history of combat does not involve Drain, and secondly, even if he did perform it here, it would be a fairly rare basis.

It would be better if you pay proper attention to the information that I cite. This would spare us both time and energy in a debate to reach an understanding on the topic.

I've paid far more attention than you in this debate, LOL. I've read everything you've posted, whereas you've clearly failed to give me the same courtesy, because if you bothered to read my posts comprehensively, you'd realize that I said that even "a limited time" is sufficient to repel an attempt from Vitiate, who would not simply try to rinse and repeat the procedure. And it's ample time for Kun to retaliate with Blasts, which would fairly difficult for Vitiate to counter.

You shouldn't assert with absolute certainty that Vitiate never uses Force Drain powers in confrontations, because Vitiate have history of extensively using Force Drain powers to fuel his strength and satiate his hunger. You are doubting Vitiate's ability to use Force Drain powers in confrontations and this makes no sense.

As I pointed out to you several times in this debate, Vitiate subjected Revan to his Force Drain powers from lightyears distance, a feat which demonstrates that Vitiate have phenomenal command of Force Drain powers. Now you may boast that Revan was vulnerable in his imprisonment but do not forget that Surik's ghost supported him in this situation and Revan was able to draw strength from this ghost to endure Vitiate's torturous attempts. Do you really think that anybody can last 300 years in torturous conditions without external help? Nobody can.

I know all of this - I don't know why you're repeating yourself. You do realize that all the examples of Vitiate siphoning strength from others involved beings too weak to resist (Revan, who could only resist mentally) or people who literally allowed Vitiate to siphon them, like his Servants. None of these happened under the strain of combat, and none of them were against people who actually were in any position to defend themselves. Doesn't work this way - that's like saying Bane can deflect a torrential rainstorm whilst dueling Darth Zannah because he's shown it before, even if it's not in a combative situation.

Here is a hint: STRENGTH

Vitiate is stronger then Sith Lords who have actively used Force Drain powers in confrontations such as Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus, and Lord Draahg.

That's not how it works at all. Bane is also more powerful than Draagh and knows Drain, but he couldn't use it on short notice without amps.

Vitiate have defeated different opponents using different abilities. Yes, Vitiate have commonly considered telepathic powers and Force Lightning as offensive options in confrontations but this doesn't means he cannot utilize other options in confrontations. Versus topics are not restrained by story elements.

As for Ulic's defenses, he might be able to reduce the effectiveness of Force Drain powers in a confrontation if subjected to it but he is still not strong enough to win in this confrontation. As I stated earlier, Vitiate have large number of options to consider in a confrontation, based on the revelation that he have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side and he is likely to have knowledge and command of techniques that Ulic and Exar may never have heard of.

I love how you speak of Vitiate as multiple people.

That being said, Vitiate's "dark and sinister techniques" largely revolve around rituals, and he hasn't displayed any of this stuff in combat. Illusions, Barrier, TP, Lightning and TK are just about everything he's shown in a fight, none of which are beyond Kun or Ulic's comprehension.

And I've already voiced that Vitiate can potentially win, lol.

I wouldn't underestimate Revan's knowledge and command of the Force. He have explored both the light and dark aspects of the Force in great depth and just the magnitude of his knowledge of dark aspects left Darth Bane in awe who spent weeks to digest such breath of knowledge but was reluctant to try many of the techniques and rituals that Revan had acquired knowledge of.

Revan's knowledge of the Force exceeded that of even Darth Traya who was highly learned in the ways of the Force and a Jedi Historian to boot.

I'm aware of all this - Naga Sadow knew every single power ever demonstrated in TotJ, Jedi or Sith, plus numerous more hidden in vaults and holocrons/scrolls. His knowledge includes powers the Jedi have never seen and can't withstand. Ragnos logically holds a comparable amount of knowledge.

Who are 'they'?

Ulic isn't a peer of Exar Kun either. Ulic certainly stalemated Exar once, but the latter became more powerful afterwards.

Vitiate doesn't needs Force Drain powers to strain Ulic and Exar Kun, Vitiate's telepathic powers are sufficient for this purpose. Honestly, Ulic is nearly useless in this confrontation. Exar Kun is the only individual who may put up a decent fight but will eventually loose as well.

Against Vitiate, numbers do not matter much. As an example, Vitiate could solo the trio of Revan, Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge.

Kun sensed Ulic as a peer, so yes, here's a peer, to some degree.

Not the novel Vitiate, who studied them and had genuine concern about them. Moreover, among Scourge's numerous visions, Vitiate was slain, it was just that there was an equal chance where Vitiate slew them.

Yes, you are making progress. Good.

Nope, I knew this already, and I mentioned it, too. You didn't bother to notice it earlier, though. Try to keep up.

Vitiate 'used' to be a scholar. Also, scholar label doesn't means that the affiliated individual did not concentrate on the matters of combat. Vitiate swiftly defeated the ruler Sith Lord of Medriaas at the age of 10 in a confrontation, and he was possibly the most powerful Force-user among the ancients even during the era of Marka Ragnos.

Some other examples of notable scholars are Darth Traya and Gnost-Dural, and both were great warriors.

Ulic is far more combat-tested than Vitiate is? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Vitiate have defeated enormous number of opponents in confrontations, he began to kill since the age of 6. Also, Vitiate have spent centuries controlling the Sith and dealing with betrayals and vice versa. He had to contend with Strike Teams of powerful Force-users at times.

1. What implies he's the most powerful of the era including Ragnos and Sadow? Numerous sources suggest that Ragnos and Sadow were the most powerful of their time, so this would be a major retcon which I doubt it is. Vitiate only became more powerful following the ritual on Medriaas, and after the events of the novel where he increased in power to become the most powerful character up to and of his time barring the Ones. And even then, he feared Sadow and Ragnos's spirits, so suggesting that he was more powerful than them before receiving that dramatic increase in power is stretching considerably in my opinion.

2. Right, except he dominates most via rituals or tricks, not combat. He rarely engages in combat to begin with, because of his supreme status (therefore few would challenge him), and numerous examples involve him being able to prepare beforehand and perform some sort of ritual. Ulic, on the other hand, has actually fought in physical/blade combat all his life. Vitiate's fights virtually never involve physical strength or lightsaber skill - he usually manages to win through straight Force power. So how he is tested in combat is different to how Ulic is tested in combat - and as I said, Vitiate's power could be sufficient to overwhelm the duo, but you're being seriously ignorant if you suggest that the reverse isn't a possibility. And yes, I'm aware you said it could happen, but for a minority - I'm just not sold on that, yet, since Vitiate considers the ancient Sith alone to be a threat to his power - and Kun is more powerful than any of them, or at least equal.

He was "tested" by legions, but most weren't defeated in strictly personal combat. He dominated most of those via rituals.

I feel so alone.