Golden Freeza vs. Beerus

Originally posted by Galan007
Ridiculous.

Freeza was SHOWN controlling the battle. Goku SAID he was getting beaten by Freeza. We were NEVER given a reason to assume that Goku was using anything but his FULL power.

...Yet that doesn't suffice as evidence that peak Golden Freeza>BSSJG Goku, iyo? You DO know how this whole 'debating thing' works, right?

As I've said before, we come to learn mid-fight, that Goku already knew he was going to win. This calls into question the entire battle. Goku was essentially waiting to win and even gave Freeza a chance to leave and possibly improve.

I know how debating works, and I know stating assumptions as facts isn't a good way of engage in one. Let's not get testy about all of this.

Goku only recognized the 'weakness' of Freeza's Golden form, when he[Freeza] started weakening from its rapid ki-consumption.

We have NO reason to assume that Goku was allowing Freeza to control the battle prior to that, however. Goku outright said he was not going to hold back, and also said that Freeza was legitimately beating him.

You're ignoring explicit facts from the film, in favor of your personal conjecture/opinion(which you obviously cannot prove, lol.) That is absolutely ridiculous, and not worth my time... It borders on trolling, tbh.

Anyway, I'm done feeding your BS. If anyone else would like to discuss this topic, however, I'm all ears. 🙂

Where is it stated at which point they learned of Freeza's weakness? Goku and especially Vegeta spoke as though they knew well before Freeza even started "losing" that his ki was bound to drop. Goku actually spoke on this right after Freeza thrashed him. At no point before that statement had Freeza showed any signs of waning ki.

Well before any sign of Freeza's ki shortage, Goku tell's Freeza "to quit while he’s ahead and go home, since he went to such trouble coming back to life." And then, “I told you this’d happen, didn’t I? I won’t be hard on you. Just go home already! I’ll always fight you again.” That's what Goku said immediately 'after' routing Freeza.

Goku, with a smile says, “Man, I’ve had it… I’m kinda gettin’ my butt kicked…” and literally his next sentence is, not even a minute later, in the same conversation, tells Freeza to "quit while he’s ahead and go home, since he went to such trouble coming back to life."

Goku obviouly knew early into the battle that Freeza was not going to win. Your are forgetting key excerpts from the film's dialogue and you should also calm down.

😂 I just watched the movie, and it's clear what happened; frieza was more powerful then goku at first. there was no other reason for us to see frieza thrashing him for a bit, and for goku to mention that he was losing. soon after goku made that statement is when he obviously sensed that freiza's power was dropping and that he should just "go home". there is honestly no reason to think that goku was holding back or whatever up to that point.

He's a saiyan ffs... a saiyan fighting his arch nemesis.... a saiyan fighting his arch nemesis, who said he wasn't going to hold back. no reason to twist the dialogue. its clear what happened. 😎

... I'm done being sidetracked by people who obviously have not seen the movie and are not being truthful when they say they have. This thread is not about Goku vs Freeza...

What is wrong with everyone wanting to argue with me so much on this? This is really crazy. The point is, if we have to assume Freeza, given time would become adequate enough to defeat Goku in battle, how does this make him reasonably close to Beerus.

What are people's definition of "close"? How do we know this mythical version of Freeza's gold form wouldn't prompt a brutal beating from a 79% Beerus? In almost every post I've made, it's harken back to Freeza not being a threat to Beerus. You have essentially replaced Beerus with Goku.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
... I'm done being sidetracked by people who obviously have not seen the movie and are not being truthful when they say they have. This thread is not about Goku vs Freeza...

What is wrong with everyone wanting to argue with me so much on this? This is really crazy. The point is, if we have to assume Freeza, given time would become adequate enough to defeat Goku in battle, how does this make him reasonably close to Beerus.

What are people's definition of "close"? How do we know this mythical version of Freeza's gold form wouldn't prompt a brutal beating from a 79% Beerus? In almost every post I've made, it's harken back to Freeza not being a threat to Beerus. You have essentially replaced Beerus with Goku.

You were the one that was making a point of Goku somehow letting Frieza control their fight, even though he explicitly said he was going to go all out.

No, the POINT is that Frieza was superior to Goku, at the beginning of their fight. In fact, Frieza was kind of manhandling Goku. And since SSJGSSJ Goku wasn't MUCH weaker than Bills, it raises the question, "Was Golden Frieza as strong as Bills, or possibly even stronger?". And since Frieza gets infinite golden form in this fight, with no stamina reduction, that means he would maintain that Bills level strength for the entire fight.

This could lead to an extremely even fight between the two, which could end with either Bills, or Frieza winning. It's just a matter of opinion and speculation, at that point. Although, Bills has been trained by Whiss, and has MILLIONS of years experience over Frieza.

IMO, Bills would win this, but SIMPLY because of the fact that he is a godly martial artist, with millions of years of experience and combat training, while Frieza, even after training for three months, is essentially STILL just an alien that has had a high power since birth. So even though they would be about equal, Bills should be the marginally better fighter, so I would give him an edge.

Also, would anyone happen to know where to watch this yet? In english subs. Seems like I'm the only one who hasn't actually seen it yet, lol.

I never said explicitly that Goku let Freeza rough him up for the few minutes he was able. I simply interjected that it could be a possibility considering Goku knew victory was assured. If we can't even be sure Goku wasn't giving Freeza the rope-a-dope, how can we be sure he can contend with Beerus at 100%?

If people would actually watch the film, we will see Goku remark that he was getting beat up and then literally, his next statement is an acknowledgement of Freeza's futility, this is in the movie.

Goku stated he knew Freeza's power would plummet, well before it was ever apparent. Again, it would help if people watched the film. Goku was being beaten and then he arose and told Freeza to go home. Only after Goku mentioned Freeza's weakness, did his power actually drop. Goku knew this would occur, during the fight. All of this is in the film. Goku wasn't being beaten any less than he was before he acknowledged the weakness in Freeza's game. The film is on Youtube and torrents, you can see for yourselves.

How can one claim to have seen this movie and then say Beerus will struggle to get a majority over Freeza? We don't even know how Goku stacks up against Beerus, only that he's 'above' Beerus' 70%. Beerus could turn around and kill Goku at 73% for all we know.

Goku said the same thing during the Namek saga, when Freeza started using 100% power. Because Goku knew that Freeza would ultimately tire out due to the strain 100% put on his body, does that mean was feigning weakness there, too..? Lol, that's not how Saiyans operate--they LOVE challenging themselves in battle as much as possible.

You really need to get off that high-horse of yours. If something wasn't stated or shown, then it didn't happen. Your opinions are irrelevant if they cannot be substantiated. In this case, Goku SAID he wasn't going to hold back against Freeza, and later SAID that Freeza was beating him up to that point. Goku sensing that Freeza's Golden form would rapidly deplete his ki certainly does not imply that he was holding back initially. Stop injecting your opinions into the scene. It's ridiculous. 👆

edit.

It does imply since Goku explained Freeza's weakness before anyone became aware...as though he knew it was an eventuality. These are not opinions, this is in the film, you all should view it.

The only opinion here is that, somehow, after watching this film, a perfected Freeza is now capable of fighting Beeus at 'close' to 100%, there is no meaningful evidence of this.

Again: Goku sensing that Freeza's Golden form would rapidly deplete his ki certainly does not imply that he was holding back initially. If anything, that would make Goku want to fight harder at the commencement of the battle, so that he could fight Freeza while he was at his peak.

That is how Saiyans think. 👆

I'm not saying that's absolutely the case, I'm just noting the possibility and how the events of the movie don't make a solid case for him rivaling Beerus.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Also, would anyone happen to know where to watch this yet? In english subs. Seems like I'm the only one who hasn't actually seen it yet, lol.

There's leaked footage out there just like there are for all movies, if all you want to see is the fight.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
I'm not saying that's absolutely the case, I'm just noting the possibility and how the events of the movie don't make a solid case for him rivaling Beerus.

Goku was running away to drain Frieza's energy. Just saying

Some parts did seem like he was strategically fighting Frieza

^ Even if you think that's what Goku was doing(no statements were made to that effect, mind you), that doesn't mean he was pulling his punches, and/or allowing Freeza to pummel him... Which is all I'm saying.

Given that Goku can very accurately sense ki-levels, I'm sure he could sense that Freeza's Golden form was consuming a lot of ki. But again: that would only make Goku want to fight harder when the battle first commenced, so that he could fight Freeza while they were both at their peak(s). In that respect, it's no different then their battle on Namek--except in this case, Freeza was legitimately more powerful initially.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Goku was running away to drain Frieza's energy. Just saying

Some parts did seem like he was strategically fighting Frieza

Exactly my point, it's clear Goku was aware of Freeza's weakness suprisingly 'early' into the fight. Goku has lied about going all out before, twice in the Buu saga. There's enough evidence to question whether or not he was giving Freeza the rope-a-dope. Add to that, on several occasions, knowing Freeza had a knew form he was willing to allow Freeza to improve. This suggests Goku is still confident in his abilities if he were to leave and return.

Let's not forget he lied about using his full power against Beerus in Bog at one point; Beerus himself at that point didn't even realize it. I don't claim to know what's in a fictional character's heart or head but given Goku already knew Freeza was fighting a losing battle, I'm going to need to see a perfected Freeza in action before I automatically assume he can beat Goku. I can't remember a major fight Goku was in where he wasn't getting beat up at 1st. Goku has been winning battles he started out losing since Dragon Ball. Those few short minutes of Goku getting knocked around is no where near enough evidence for me to jump to that conclusion.

Originally posted by U need Leonard
It does imply since Goku explained Freeza's weakness before anyone became aware...as though he knew it was an eventuality. These are not opinions, this is in the film, you all should view it.

The only opinion here is that, somehow, after watching this film, a perfected Freeza is now capable of fighting Beeus at 'close' to 100%, there is no meaningful evidence of this.

What? Are you stupid or something?

Goku specifically let Frieza transform, for the SOLE purpose of having a good fight. Why would he try to run away from him, while he had the chance of a good fight? That's the entire reason he remarked that he was getting his butt kicked in the first place. He was glad that he was having a good fight, but still knew that there wasn't a huge danger that Frieza posed to him.

YOU are the one using opinions over facts. Frieza was SUPERIOR to SSJGSSJ Goku, while he was at full power. Marginally so, in fact. JUST like how 100% Frieza was superior to SSJ1 Goku, on Namek. This whole fight was a TOTAL rehash. Anyway, YOU'RE the one that's assuming that Goku knew throughout the duration of the fight, that Frieza's power would drop. Which is NOT the case. He wouldn't have waited to tell Frieza to quit, if he knew the whole time. He told Frieza to give up, because he noticed that Frieza's power was dropping. There is no way to know if he knew this prior to that point, meaning that you CANNOT assume so. We take the path of least resistance, which we do in all debates. What makes the most sense, is that Goku would tell Frieza to give up, AS SOON AS HE NOTICED HIS POWER DROPPING. Anything else is pure speculation.

Either way, since Goku was fighting at FULL POWER against Frieza, as was stated TWICE, we have FACTUAL PROOF that Golden Frieza 100% > SSJGSSJ Goku. Which means that: 100% Bills ~ 100% Golden Frieza > SSJGSSJ Goku.

So from there, it is possible that Frieza could be stronger than Bills, weaker than Bills, or equal to Bills. So, we can just infer them to be equal, since that guess would be assuming the least.

Either way, even IF they were equal, Bills still has millions, possibly BILLIONS, of years of experience, and is the MOST skilled martial artist IN THE UNIVERSE, barring Whiss. Frieza is just a mutant, who was gifted with monstrous power, and ability from birth. Even though he trained for a couple months, he's still completely raw, untrained in combat, and not at all in Bills's, or Goku's for that matter, league of skill. He might be able to beat SSJGSSJ Goku because he's stronger than him, but even assuming he's equal to Bills, Bills still has the upper-hand because of his fighting skill, and countless years of experience.

So barring your nonsense, Bills STILL wins. You don't have to go around making things up, to prove that.

Originally posted by cdtm
There's leaked footage out there just like there are for all movies, if all you want to see is the fight.

I've already seen the fight. I just want to see the rest of the movie, lol. And I can't seem to find any streaming versions, with subtitles, let alone decent quality. 🙁