Originally posted by Juntai
Lets keep in mind that Archangel Gabriel is the father of Christ, so very important in the cosmology.
Archangel Raguel ended up as The Spectre. The Tribunals counterpart in DCU.And both angels are beneath Michael and Lucifer.
The top angels harming eachother doesn't mean much.
Lucifer was confident in that he could destroy Dream or Death as concepts in dealings with both of them, and Dream knew challenging Lucifer as certain death.. Similarly it took 'a lot' of pre-Retcon Beyonder's power to accomplish killing Death.
A bit ambiguous on all levels but most things are at this place in the hierarchys... but these things speak generally to where Lucifer's power lies.
Just because it's drawn as swords and shields combat doesn't mean anything.
The archangels have done nothing on panel that a serious Marvel Skyfather couldn't do.
Originally posted by zopzop👆
Gabriel has done NOTHING on panel that's impressive. The fact that he had Lucifer dead to rights but didnt go for the killing blow because he wanted to reason with him doesn't say much for Lucifer's power level.The archangels have done nothing on panel that a serious Marvel Skyfather couldn't do.
Originally posted by zopzopLucifer and Michael being above characters like Spectre and The Endless says how much power they have.
Gabriel has done NOTHING on panel that's impressive. The fact that he had Lucifer dead to rights but didnt go for the killing blow because he wanted to reason with him doesn't say much for Lucifer's power level.The archangels have done nothing on panel that a serious Marvel Skyfather couldn't do.
Gabriel is a side character. Why would he need feats.
The fact he can tangle with Lucifer says all it needs to.
The Dreamstone/Materioptikon alone was shown as power over universes, and that's a small part of Dream's power.
When Dream went to challenge Lucifer, he went expecting to die.
Originally posted by zopzop
Gabriel has done NOTHING on panel that's impressive. The fact that he had Lucifer dead to rights but didnt go for the killing blow because he wanted to reason with him doesn't say much for Lucifer's power level.The archangels have done nothing on panel that a serious Marvel Skyfather couldn't do.
Must be Herald level by your standard.
Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer and Michael being above characters like Spectre and The Endless says how much power they have.Gabriel is a side character. Why would he need feats.
The fact he can tangle with Lucifer says all it needs to.
The Dreamstone/Materioptikon alone was shown as power over universes, and that's a small part of Dream's power.
When Dream went to challenge Lucifer, he went expecting to die.
This dude is featless and he almost killed Lucifer.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, how do you see LT needing assistance from six other cosmics to defeat an alternate Galactus and managing only a solar system level blast then?Must be Herald level by your standard.
Originally posted by zopzop
Gabriel is supposedly one of the "big three" angels. He was with Lucifer and Michael when Yahweh was giving them their roles over his creation.This dude is featless and he almost killed Lucifer.
Pre Retcon MM blasted teh sh|t out of Pre Retcon Beyonder and didn't even break Marsha's couch. They must be geriatric level.
LT and cosmics were using all their powers though.
Your double standards are showing though.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Must be.LT and cosmics were using all their powers though.
Your double standards are showing though.
Pre MM hit Pre Beyonder with everything he had and there was no damage to Marsha's apartment.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Your point is?
Somehow that doesn't apply to Gabriel and Lucifer?
Originally posted by zopzopComplaining? Not in the least. In that case I would show you LT's very tough fight with Nebulous. That was a fun fight.You were complaining about insufficient collateral damage being done by high end Marvel cosmics (ie 'only' a solar system level blast).
The dude got impaled (and BLOODIED) by a SWORD. I wasn't complaining about the lack of collateral damage from their fight. [/B]
You still hung over that? When will you comprehend that high power entities can injure other high level beings using anything.
Not that angelic sword are something ordinary.
Point being LT's counterpart Spectre is an ant compared to Michael. Imagine how above Lucifer would be.
Originally posted by Zack MBran put up a very detailed post exposing the overrated Spectre. He loses all the time and him losing again and easily to Michael is no surprise. That holds no weight against someone like Odin who has superior feats.
Michael one shotted Spectre. I don't see somebody like Odin doing that.
I would say it would be like this.
1. Presence, TOAA, Overmonitor, DC vs Marvel Brothers
2. Omniversal beings like Michael, Lucifer, Spectre (100% back up by the Presence), LT (100% back up by TOAA), The Beyonders as a Race (all), Mandrakk 2, Anti-Monitor,
3. Megaversal/Multiversal beings like True Darkseid, LT/Spectre (Average), God Doom, Phoenix Force, Parallax, Mikaboshi, Marvel Brothers (from the x-Men adventures)
4. Ultimate Universal powers like THOTI, IG, ALE, Ion 1, LT/Spectre (low)
5. Universal Abstracts, Eternity, Kismet, Galactus, Imperiex, Some Celestials
6. Universal Powerhouses, Ego, Odin, Zeus, Phantom Stranger
Originally posted by zopzop
He looked like he was winning that fight till Yahweh stepped in and broke it up.Also, 'preserving all the worlds in creation' isn't exactly an impressive job title. The PF has been called "the mother of stars" and it's not all that impressive in the MU cosmology.
He had the advantage, sure, but afterwards Lucifer seemed to be able to continue after which Yahweh intervened. Carey also repeatedly stated that Lucifer is second only to God. But even if we assume he lost the fight, Gabriel has the same position as Lucifer and Michael in the grand scheme of things (actually a bit lower but still). So like i said before, it's not really that bad of a showing.
The difference is, Phoenix Force is all about hyperbole. While Yahweh assigned the tasks to Lucifer, Michael and Gabriel and they were actually implemented.
Originally posted by operator616
He had the advantage, sure, but afterwards Lucifer seemed to be able to continue after which Yahweh intervened. Carey also repeatedly stated that Lucifer is second only to God. But even if we assume he lost the fight, Gabriel has the same position as Lucifer and Michael in the grand scheme of things (actually a bit lower but still). So like i said before, it's not really that bad of a showing.
The difference is, Phoenix Force is all about hyperbole. While Yahweh assigned the tasks to Lucifer, Michael and Gabriel and they were actually implemented.
Originally posted by zopzopIt actually is a pathetic showing considering :
a) Gabriel has NO feats or fights to his credit aside from this
b) He was cut and bleeding from A SWORD
[/B]
No it isn't because:
a) Gabriel is an archangel and was clearly meant to be on the same level as Lucifer and Michael.
b) ....Ok? Excalbiur is a sword and yet it's also a multiversal weapon. I mean, come on, even you can't be stupid enough to claim that it was a regular sword.
Originally posted by zopzop
You got scans of Gabriel tending to all the worlds in creation? [/B]
I don't have to have scans. Because the existence of the Vertigo verse is enough proof of that. Yahweh assigned the roles at the dawn of time: Michael releases the energy, Lucifer makes the energy take form creating reality, and Gabriel preserves them. It's also confirmed in a bio. It's an established fact that the Vertigo multiverse is a creation of the archangels. Something you seemed to have ignored in my previous post because you can't counter it, and we both know that it completely shits on your "Lucifer created a universe" crap. Ive said it before a dozen times and ill say it again: whether Lucifer created a universe or a multiverse in issue #13 is irrelevant since he along with his brothers were responsible for the original creation as well. The mainstream Vertigo reality - an established multiverse.