Captain America vs Superman

Originally posted by Delta1938
So John encasing Superman in a shield while Superman was going after Wally and Superman's own narration showing he was setting things up(making it questionable at best that it's a legit speed feat for John even with the distraction) proves.....what, exactly?

You are missing the point entirely. It's not about Superman its the Flash. The point is they both went for the same target and Johns attack landed first. So what that means is that in this situation both John and Flash have similar attack speeds, and we know that The Flash is faster than Superman which therefore means we could extrapolate that John could handle Superman's speed with that feat.

Just because Superman set things up doesn't disprove that John could handle his speed. John didn't really get beaten by Supes speed he got beaten because of blunt force trauma. Cap has setup Spiderman before doesn't mean Cap is as fast or faster than Spiderman.

Also I'm not arguing that John is faster than Flash or even Superman as usual we have to look at feats in general. Just because John seemed to be faster doesn't mean that it would happen all the time.

Why aren't you mentioning that both John and Flash were under mind control?

Originally posted by Delta1938

First, I was going off memory and thought it was Superman Zoom was hitting when Hal came in, so it's not that I need to learn to read scans. Second, you clearly can't be bothered with providing scans, at all. Just make claims. I could post a lot more, but you're not making it worth the effort.

One incident is just as much as you've shown. And considering the context of both my example and yours, it doesn't help your case.

and I was going off memory as well and you still got it wrong. Who he was fighting is irrelevant the point is you said he was standing still. No I could still say you can't read scans you're still trying to argue that the scans with John and Superman don't prove anything and I could throw a hissy fit about you not mentioning that they were under mind control. The fact is it looks llike you didn't read it properly but you telling to me to read it properly. That sort of thing tends to make me less generous.

I don't care wether you get scans or you got info from you're memory wrong nobodies perfect but you're getting things wrong and giving me attitude. I don't like that.

Originally posted by Delta1938

.....are you arguing that genetics equate to willpower?

Trying to dismiss Superman's feats of willpower because he's not a powerless human is actually really, REALLY ****ing stupid. It gives you an excuse to dismiss anything Superman's done because "Cap is human!!" while you're blissfully unaware that it doesn't actually matter because regardless of your opinion on Cap's being better because "he's not superhuman" it doesn't change if Superman's are simply better. That's like trying to argue Superman isn't stronger than Captain America because "Captain America is human therefore his strength feats are better!!"

I didn't elaborate maybe that's the problem. I'm not dismissing Superman's will power feats because he's superhuman I'm arguing that you have to take that into consideration when dealing with somebody who's that powerful. I think even if Superman was human he would still have great willpower but being in superhuman form would make a difference.

There are loads of examples in comics of characters dealing with physical problems and then having it effect them mentally. A good example is Daredevil what he went through during and prior to the inferno arc physically made it hard for him to operate his radar sense. If he had class 100 strength and durability this wouldn't have happened.

Does it mean that characters who are more powerful than other characters always have stronger wills no it doesn't, but when dealing with characters that are at a certain level and have a certain powerset this does usually tend to be the case.

Superman doesn't just have class 100 strength and durability but he has FTL reflexes superhuman sense and can sometimes calculate loads of information in nano seconds. To make matters worse he knows T-Vo, it's a mental martial art for crying out loud! This is why characters who have psionic power or practice magic as a mental discipline tend to have greater wills than those who don't. So yes Superman's powerset will affect his willpower.

Lets move into GLs. Their powerset is all to do with willpower they go through training once they become a GL in order to make it stronger. The point is this Cap already has great willpower feats without GL Training and without superpowers what do you think he's gonna be like after 2 years???

Here's a comparable example Alan Scott was fighting Mordru. Mordru decided to hit Alan Scott with a spell of making a vibration inside his inner ear so he couldn't concentrate, that took Alan Scott out of the fight. It's important to note that as Mordru stated it was a simple spell, the word he used to describe it was fragile.

Lets compare this to what happened to Cap. Got got into a fight with an upgraded Spiderman who had a newly designed suit. Then recieved a nasty beating from an angry Iron Man in Extremis armour, he then gets hit by a sonic weapon which was designed to shut down the brain. Not only that Cap seemed to be doing far better than Alan Scott because he was still standing and looked like he wanted to fight.

Caps feat >>> Alans

Alan Scotts willpower makes him one of the most powerful beings in the universe but despite that Cap has already got one better feat. Cap would be the strongest GL ever.

Originally posted by Delta1938

So, are you actually going to post anything to back your claims, or are you going to continue to make arguments based on nothing but speculation and assumption?

You need to calm down.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Wait... How do you not know this? It's one of the first things Lanterns are told about the ring.

Or do you really think the ring has to be vocally told what to do?

Have you never watched any of the cartoons? Haven't seen the movie?

Pr I'm refering to GLs thking of something and letting it happen opposed to telling the ring what to do verbal or mental. In other words you can tell the ring what do or you can will it yourself to happen.

Originally posted by Deadline
You are missing the point entirely. It's not about Superman its the Flash. The point is they both went for the same target and Johns attack landed first. So what that means is that in this situation both John and Flash have similar attack speeds, and we know that The Flash is faster than Superman which therefore means we could extrapolate that John could handle Superman's speed with that feat.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Speed/Miscellaneous/ProfessorZoom

Professor Zoom is faster than Wally. Superman not only tagged him, but Professor Zoom said Superman's speed rivals his own. Going by your logic, Superman is faster than Wally and therefore would be faster than John.

Originally posted by Deadline
Just because Superman set things up doesn't disprove that John could handle his speed. John didn't really get beaten by Supes speed he got beaten because of blunt force trauma. Cap has setup Spiderman before doesn't mean Cap is as fast or faster than Spiderman.

Setting things up would mean it's an assumption that John was fast enough to handle him. And I was referring to Superman was too fast for WALLY to do anything. Wally was fast enough to know what he was doing, but not fast enough to do anything about it. And if you try to argue the force field John put around Superman, unless you can prove Wally's speed steal could not work despite that, it's a circular argument. And Superman busting right through that field and KOing John doesn't help your argument.

Originally posted by Deadline
Also I'm not arguing that John is faster than Flash or even Superman as usual we have to look at feats in general. Just because John seemed to be faster doesn't mean that it would happen all the time.

You're bringing up stuff that's questionable at best. Batman has caught Impulse running around in Speed Force ADD mode. Does that mean he could keep-up with Jay or Supes?

Originally posted by Deadline
Why aren't you mentioning that both John and Flash were under mind control?

You'll find out!! 😄

Originally posted by Deadline
and I was going off memory as well and you still got it wrong. Who he was fighting is irrelevant the point is you said he was standing still. No I could still say you can't read scans you're still trying to argue that the scans with John and Superman don't prove anything and I could throw a hissy fit about you not mentioning that they were under mind control. The fact is it looks llike you didn't read it properly but you telling to me to read it properly. That sort of thing tends to make me less generous.

I don't care wether you get scans or you got info from you're memory wrong nobodies perfect but you're getting things wrong and giving me attitude. I don't like that.

I didn't say "standing still." Zoom wasn't running in circles around Superman like he was with Wonder Woman, and I mixed them up. It's still being overblown.

But about me not bringing-up that John and Wally were mind controlled. You know why I didn't bring it up? It's because they weren't. Long story short, Maxwell Lord had telepathic influence on Superman, and was making Superman paranoid and come to the conclusion that THEY were the ones under telepathic control, not him.

I know this because I actually read the comic. You made the assumption because you hadn't read about it. And you ***** that I need to "read it properly." Don't YOU look like a dumbass right now? Karma's a *****.

Originally posted by Deadline
I didn't elaborate maybe that's the problem. I'm not dismissing Superman's will power feats because he's superhuman I'm arguing that you have to take that into consideration when dealing with somebody who's that powerful. I think even if Superman was human he would still have great willpower but being in superhuman form would make a difference.

There are loads of examples in comics of characters dealing with physical problems and then having it effect them mentally. A good example is Daredevil what he went through during and prior to the inferno arc physically made it hard for him to operate his radar sense. If he had class 100 strength and durability this wouldn't have happened.

Does it mean that characters who are more powerful than other characters always have stronger wills no it doesn't, but when dealing with characters that are at a certain level and have a certain powerset this does usually tend to be the case.

Superman doesn't just have class 100 strength and durability but he has FTL reflexes superhuman sense and can sometimes calculate loads of information in nano seconds. To make matters worse he knows T-Vo, it's a mental martial art for crying out loud! This is why characters who have psionic power or practice magic as a mental discipline tend to have greater wills than those who don't. So yes Superman's powerset will affect his willpower.

Lets move into GLs. Their powerset is all to do with willpower they go through training once they become a GL in order to make it stronger. The point is this Cap already has great willpower feats without GL Training and without superpowers what do you think he's gonna be like after 2 years???

Here's a comparable example Alan Scott was fighting Mordru. Mordru decided to hit Alan Scott with a spell of making a vibration inside his inner ear so he couldn't concentrate, that took Alan Scott out of the fight. It's important to note that as Mordru stated it was a simple spell, the word he used to describe it was fragile.

Lets compare this to what happened to Cap. Got got into a fight with an upgraded Spiderman who had a newly designed suit. Then recieved a nasty beating from an angry Iron Man in Extremis armour, he then gets hit by a sonic weapon which was designed to shut down the brain. Not only that Cap seemed to be doing far better than Alan Scott because he was still standing and looked like he wanted to fight.

Caps feat >>> Alans

Alan Scotts willpower makes him one of the most powerful beings in the universe but despite that Cap has already got one better feat. Cap would be the strongest GL ever.

All of this is irrelevant because I'm referring to things like Superman overcoming a death god's, well, "death power" for lack of a better term, or other examples like that, not some will overcoming physical stuff.

Originally posted by Deadline
You need to calm down.

I'm actually perfectly fine. What I said is true and remains true. You made a topic that is heavily based on speculation and assumption for the character you're supporting, and you're not even posting much to support it. There's only so far you can go with using scans of other Green Lanterns and apply them to Cap. It works more in my favor the other way around, though, on Superman's performances against GLs and others.

Originally posted by Delta1938
http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/library/Speed/Miscellaneous/ProfessorZoom

Professor Zoom is faster than Wally. Superman not only tagged him, but Professor Zoom said Superman's speed rivals his own. Going by your logic, Superman is faster than Wally and therefore would be faster than John.

Ok do you understand that individual feats in themselves don't prove anything? Do you understand that we take feats as a whole? Sure Superman tagged him but in another instance like The Sinestro Wars Zoom was too fast.

So no according to my logic it wouldn't prove Superman is faster because i don't go by individual feats. You need to actually comprehend what my argument is before actually telling me what my logic is.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Setting things up would mean it's an assumption that John was fast enough to handle him. And I was referring to Superman was too fast for WALLY to do anything. Wally was fast enough to know what he was doing, but not fast enough to do anything about it. And if you try to argue the force field John put around Superman, unless you can prove Wally's speed steal could not work despite that, it's a circular argument. And Superman busting right through that field and KOing John doesn't help your argument.

No it's not an assumption because there are other examples of GLs having comparable speed feats to characters like Superman. Again Cap has set up Spiderman it doesn't prove that Cap is faster than Spiderman. Spiderman has been tagged by people slower than him loads of times it doesn't necceasrily prove that characters are faster than him. Again we go by feats as a whole. I don't need to prove anything in those scans John had comparable attack speed to Flash that's all you need to know.

Ok I'm going to try one more time. John wasn't really beaten by Supermans speed but blunt force trauma. Captain America can tag and KO Spiderman it doesn't prove that he's faster if we go by feats as a whole.

Originally posted by Delta1938

You're bringing up stuff that's questionable at best. Batman has caught Impulse running around in Speed Force ADD mode. Does that mean he could keep-up with Jay or Supes?

No they're not questionable. You see this is the problem you can't tell the difference between a 'peak human' and man with a ring that can make him travel at FTL speed and do things like time travel? If you can't tell the difference between a GL and Batman then I'm clearly wasting my time.

Seriously.

Originally posted by Delta1938

I didn't say "standing still." Zoom wasn't running in circles around Superman like he was with Wonder Woman, and I mixed them up. It's still being overblown.

and I'm not sure if i believe you the first time I said you were saying he was standing still you didn't deny it. Bottom line is you were trying to belittle the feat.

No it's not overblown because you don't get the point. Looking at feats in general Zoom is faster than Flash and Superman. Zoom was actively moving around trying to evade the superheros he was fighting, so it's still impressive that Hal was able to not only tag him but grab him.

The point isn't that Hal is as fast as Zoom or faster the point it was still impressive considering and you could argue that Hal could handle characters slower than Zoom.

Originally posted by Delta1938

But about me not bringing-up that John and Wally were mind controlled. You know why I didn't bring it up? It's because they weren't. Long story short, Maxwell Lord had telepathic influence on Superman, and was making Superman paranoid and come to the conclusion that THEY were the ones under telepathic control, not him.

I know this because I actually read the comic. You made the assumption because you hadn't read about it. And you ***** that I need to "read it properly." Don't YOU look like a dumbass right now? Karma's a *****.

Right so you managed to read a comic I haven't read I guess that's a crime now. Ok you need to calm down because it doesn't disprove anything. Still doesn't change the fact that John had comparable attack speeds to Flash, that's the point.

Originally posted by Delta1938

All of this is irrelevant because I'm referring to things like Superman overcoming a death god's, well, "death power" for lack of a better term, or other examples like that, not some will overcoming physical stuff.

I don't even think you even understood the point I was making? What point was I trying to make?

Originally posted by Delta1938

I'm actually perfectly fine. What I said is true and remains true. You made a topic that is heavily based on speculation and assumption for the character you're supporting, and you're not even posting much to support it. There's only so far you can go with using scans of other Green Lanterns and apply them to Cap. It works more in my favor the other way around, though, on Superman's performances against GLs and others.

No, no you're not fine at all. You need to calm down and I just decided to clarify some points. I'm going to stop posting on this topic real soon. This is not a debate but an argument.

Originally posted by Deadline
Ok do you understand that individual feats in themselves don't prove anything? Do you understand that we take feats as a whole? Sure Superman tagged him but in another instance like The Sinestro Wars Zoom was too fast.

So no according to my logic it wouldn't prove Superman is faster because i don't go by individual feats. You need to actually comprehend what my argument is before actually telling me what my logic is.

No it's not an assumption because there are other examples of GLs having comparable speed feats to characters like Superman. Again Cap has set up Spiderman it doesn't prove that Cap is faster than Spiderman. Spiderman has been tagged by people slower than him loads of times it doesn't necceasrily prove that characters are faster than him. Again we go by feats as a whole. I don't need to prove anything in those scans John had comparable attack speed to Flash that's all you need to know.

The great irony is you're focusing on over blowing two examples, where I can show many, many more examples for Superman's speed. I haven't shown many, because you're really not bringing much to the table.

Originally posted by Deadline
Ok I'm going to try one more time. John wasn't really beaten by Supermans speed but blunt force trauma. Captain America can tag and KO Spiderman it doesn't prove that he's faster if we go by feats as a whole.

I was referring to Superman operating too fast for WALLY to do anything. Which it says in the comic. Breaking John's construct being "he didn't beat John by speed" is irrelevant. Why? Too fast for Wally+too powerful for John=JLA ownage. If you can't prove that Wally would be unable to speed steal(his only option in the situation) then there's nothing to say Superman wouldn't have gone too fast for John, unless you're going to argue John IS faster than Wally. What is that about me needing to learn to read properly again?

Originally posted by Deadline
No they're not questionable. You see this is the problem you can't tell the difference between a 'peak human' and man with a ring that can make him travel at FTL speed and do things like time travel? If you can't tell the difference between a GL and Batman then I'm clearly wasting my time.

Seriously.

You keep going about "feats as a whole" and bring-up two examples you blow out of proportion. Do you want to start comparing relevant speed feats between Superman and typical GLs? "Relevant" being the keyword here. And since you brought up time travel, I can see why you didn't get the Batman example.

Originally posted by Deadline
and I'm not sure if i believe you the first time I said you were saying he was standing still you didn't deny it. Bottom line is you were trying to belittle the feat.

No it's not overblown because you don't get the point. Looking at feats in general Zoom is faster than Flash and Superman. Zoom was actively moving around trying to evade the superheros he was fighting, so it's still impressive that Hal was able to not only tag him but grab him.

The point isn't that Hal is as fast as Zoom or faster the point it was still impressive considering and you could argue that Hal could handle characters slower than Zoom.

So tell me again why you complain about me "using one feat" and you're only relying on two shown(and blown out of proportion) examples and one you cited but didn't show? Where are the other examples? What, it's fine to rely on just some when it helps hypothetical Cap?

Originally posted by Deadline
Right so you managed to read a comic I haven't read I guess that's a crime now. Ok you need to calm down because it doesn't disprove anything. Still doesn't change the fact that John had comparable attack speeds to Flash, that's the point.

😆 You tried to "belittle" Superman's JLA ownage by "why aren't you mentioning they were mind controlled?" when if anybody was handicapped by it, it was Superman. Although it was actually he was being manipulated by his paranoia being amped, but yeah.

Are we going to keep going in circles about the meager two overblown examples you keep pimping, or will you actually show something better? And, will it be based on something you've read first-hand?

Originally posted by Deadline
I don't even think you even understood the point I was making? What point was I trying to make?

You're trying to argue Cap's willpower>Superman's willpower because Superman is superhuman and your comparison is shit like Cap showing will by physically overcoming stuff. I base Superman's willpower on other things. So your argument of "Cap is human" is irrelevant because I'm not talking about the same things you are.

Did YOU understand the point I was making?

Originally posted by Deadline
No, no you're not fine at all. You need to calm down and I just decided to clarify some points. I'm going to stop posting on this topic real soon. This is not a debate but an argument.

I'm perfectly calm. It's simply a fact your argument is of a hypothetical character. You need a lot of speculation and assumption, and using stuff from other GLs only goes so far, because it's a hypothetical Green Lantern. Superman's performances against other GLs though do in fact hold more weight.

Originally posted by Delta1938
The great irony is you're focusing on over blowing two examples, where I can show many, many more examples for Superman's speed. I haven't shown many, because you're really not bringing much to the table.

I was referring to Superman operating too fast for WALLY to do anything. Which it says in the comic. Breaking John's construct being "he didn't beat John by speed" is irrelevant. Why? Too fast for Wally+too powerful for John=JLA ownage. If you can't prove that Wally would be unable to speed steal(his only option in the situation) then there's nothing to say Superman wouldn't have gone too fast for John, unless you're going to argue John IS faster than Wally. What is that about me needing to learn to read properly again?

You keep going about "feats as a whole" and bring-up two examples you blow out of proportion. Do you want to start comparing relevant speed feats between Superman and typical GLs? "Relevant" being the keyword here. And since you brought up time travel, I can see why you didn't get the Batman example.

So tell me again why you complain about me "using one feat" and you're only relying on two shown(and blown out of proportion) examples and one you cited but didn't show? Where are the other examples? What, it's fine to rely on just some when it helps hypothetical Cap?

😆 You tried to "belittle" Superman's JLA ownage by "why aren't you mentioning they were mind controlled?" when if anybody was handicapped by it, it was Superman. Although it was actually he was being manipulated by his paranoia being amped, but yeah.

Are we going to keep going in circles about the meager two overblown examples you keep pimping, or will you actually show something better? And, will it be based on something you've read first-hand?

You're trying to argue Cap's willpower>Superman's willpower because Superman is superhuman and your comparison is shit like Cap showing will by physically overcoming stuff. I base Superman's willpower on other things. So your argument of "Cap is human" is irrelevant because I'm not talking about the same things you are.

Did YOU understand the point I was making?

I'm perfectly calm. It's simply a fact your argument is of a hypothetical character. You need a lot of speculation and assumption, and using stuff from other GLs only goes so far, because it's a hypothetical Green Lantern. Superman's performances against other GLs though do in fact hold more weight.

Look go back and read what I posted properly instead of trying to win a debate.

Originally posted by Deadline
Look go back and read what I posted properly instead of trying to win a debate.

I read it fine, thank you very much. Do you have anything beside those two examples?

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
I made a very simple statement that stupid people may find complexed. Mxy wouldn't be shit im Marvel. Hope that helps, but probably not in your case.

Wait how would Mxy not be shit in Marvel? When Joker had 99% of his power he easily recreated the universe. Puts him around LT levels at least. He would obliterate Impossible Man with a thought.

Originally posted by Surtur
Wait how would Mxy not be shit in Marvel? When Joker had 99% of his power he easily recreated the universe. Puts him around LT levels at least. He would obliterate Impossible Man with a thought.

Because he wouldn't be written that way. No one in Marvel would be depicted as being all powerful, hence, he would be shit in Marvel (in comparison to D.C.)

Great logic......

Originally posted by abhilegend
Great logic......

It's perfectly logical. There is no Marvel equivalent portrayal of Mxy running around wreaking havoc any time he feels like it. Marvel doesn't do business that way. Sorry you don't like it.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
It's perfectly logical. There is no Marvel equivalent portrayal of Mxy running around wreaking havoc any time he feels like it. Marvel doesn't do business that way. Sorry you don't like it.

Yeah, totally plausible 👆!!!

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Going by that logic Galactus would be a Teen Titans-level threat in the DCU.

Yeah, totally plausible 👆!!!

Um, no. There are characters more akin to Galactus in D.C. such as Antimonitor.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Um, no. There are characters more akin to Galactus in D.C. such as Antimonitor.

And you know that, because you read comics? 😂

Get out of here dude!!!

"Wise men speak because they have something to say; fools because they have to say something."

Plato.

In case you don't know you fall into the fool category.

Physical beasts are always Lanterns kryptonite and Superman is a physical beast. Captain America isn't winning a single match here. Maybe if he was fighting a Mage or blaster he could win but people like Superman, Thor, Blue Marvel, etc... would smoke him/them.

This could be a good thread but there is a lot of trolling. I wish it would stop so we could have a proper debate.

Originally posted by carver9
Physical beasts are always Lanterns kryptonite and Superman is a physical beast. Captain America isn't winning a single match here. Maybe if he was fighting a Mage or blaster he could win but people like Superman, Thor, Blue Marvel, etc... would smoke them.

You have a point but if Cap was using the GL ring and nothing else I think you could say Superman wins. You're not factoring Caps shield his h2h skills and his battle tactics.

Caps GL powers will keep him the game so he can set up Supes for a shield strike or take him out h2h.

I made a thread based on this one. In which I pitted GL Captain America with a 5 year experience on the ring and his shield vs the top tier green lanterns and no one thinks he can beat the top lanterns. Not saying you are wrong, just that almost no one shares your opinion.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t616294.html

Originally posted by carver9
Physical beasts are always Lanterns kryptonite and Superman is a physical beast. Captain America isn't winning a single match here. Maybe if he was fighting a Mage or blaster he could win but people like Superman, Thor, Blue Marvel, etc... would smoke him/them.

Caps fighting skill is flat out superior to Superman's and it isn't close. He also has an indestructible melee weapon that he can complete control with the GL power. And with the Super Soldier serum, he will make the transition to herald seamlessly. Kal has met his match.

How is he beating Superman?

Originally posted by carver9
How is he beating Superman?

What do you mean? It's Cap, how do you want it? KHTFO or if he is blood lusted, shearing off his head with the Shield. Cap would redefine what it is to be a GL.

Cap's skill >>>>> Hal
Cap's will >>>>> Hal

Hal busted Krona, right? A GL Cap would own Superman in battle.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I made a thread based on this one. In which I pitted GL Captain America with a 5 year experience on the ring and his shield vs the top tier green lanterns and no one thinks he can beat the top lanterns. Not saying you are wrong, just that almost no one shares your opinion.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t616294.html

I didn't respond because it looked like a bait thread. It doesn't matter what they think nobody backed up their opinion with fact and reasoning.

Originally posted by carver9
How is he beating Superman?

You do realise that cap could actually one-shot Superman? Nobodies seems to get this.