General Primary Discussion Thread

Started by Adam_PoE212 pages
Originally posted by Bardock42
Steinem's comments are stupid and sexist (and it is ironic that Maher, who tends to be a bigot in many areas, is the one to point it out), however it is indicative of the split in opinion between 2nd wave and 3rd wave feminists, so not totally surprising.

Steinem on why many younger women do not support Clinton as much as older women:

"I mean, first of all, women get more radical as we get older, because . . . I don't mean to overgeneralize . . . but men tend to get more conservative because they gain power as the age, and women get more radical because they lose power as they age.

So it's kind of not fair to measure most women by the standard of most men because they're going to get more activist as they get older.

And when you're young, you're thinking, 'Where are the boys? The boys are with Bernie, or you know . . .'"

If anything, that statement is ageist, not sexist. It also has the benefit of being true.

Younger women, who are experiencing the height of their societal power, are more insulated from the effects of sexism, and less concerned with feminist issues.

Marion Just, who has been a political science professor at Wellesley College for 45 years, said, "The question, I think, is how concerned [young women are] about having a woman elected to the presidency. This generation has a rather optimistic worldview, which is probably not deserved by the way things have been going for women in this country."

The flippant, "Where are the boys," remark has less to do with sexuality, and more to do with optimistic young women who do not feel the burden of sexism, identifying power, in this case young men, and siding with it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
One comparison that I think was pretty apt is that Hillary Clinton has a bit of the same vibe that Nixon did. Disregarding that Nixon turned out to be a crook/criminal, while having an excellent track record and lots of experience he also had a quality that made him untrustworthy to many people.

Thirty years and millions of dollars of Republican attacks do not hurt either. All because she is a woman who did not know her place. She dared, as First Lady, to do something substantive for the American people, by proposing a universal health care plan, instead of being content to pick out China patterns. And the attacks on her character have not stopped since.

There is also an undercurrent of sexism, which Steinem also addresses:

"But there is a deep reason, I think, with women often . . . because we are mostly raised by women, we associate female authority with childhood emotionality, irrationality . . . we see men's authority later, and it seems more rational and appropriate to the outside world.

We will really only be able to recognize human talent in all of its forms when men are raising children as much as women are and women are in the public world as much as men are."

Many people feel infantilized by female authority.

Mark Joseph Stern adds:

"In any nominating race featuring a female candidate, there will always be a male alternative whose gender allows him to do everything his female opponent cannot.

[In 2008,] Clinton was boxed in completely: If she stuck with her tough-minded pragmatism, she would continue to be depicted as an unlikeable shrew. (Fox News: 'When Barack Obama speaks, men hear "Take off for the future!" When Hillary Clinton speaks, men hear "Take out the garbage!"'😉 If she campaigned on her emotions like Obama, she would be mocked mercilessly as weak (at best) or manipulative (at worst) by her foes in the press.

This time around, Clinton changed her tune. Aware that her tough demeanor put off some voters, she presented herself as a positive, cheerful pragmatist. “A progressive who likes to get things done.” A warrior for the middle class—but a pleasant and amiable one, not a calculating establishment politician. This, too, made Clinton an easy target for her opponents in the media. By attempting to seem genuine, the theory went, Clinton proved herself to be a fraud: Anyone who had to try to seem genuine could not possibly be genuine.

In stepped Sanders: Brash, no-nonsense, straight-talking, uncompromisingly liberal. (Or so he liked to claim: In actuality, Sanders has a spotty record on gay rights and a terrible record on guns.) Oh, and he’s a man. Democrats flocked to him as a more progressive alternative to Clinton, despite the fact that his legislative strategy hinges on a “political revolution” that will apparently involve Republicans instantly dematerializing upon his inauguration. He and Clinton have mostly minor policy disputes, but Sanders is heralded as a true progressive, even though his most liberal proposals are politically dead in the water.

Still, Sanders’ angry populist demagogue shtick goes over extraordinarily well with young liberals, especially white ones, who are weary of horse-trading incremental change. As Rebecca Traister recently noted, Clinton would be committing political suicide if she were equally loud and indignant and unkempt and fiery. 'No one likes a woman who yells loudly about revolution,' Traister wrote. Hillary is, once again, boxed in by gender politics—and once again, a male alternative has swept in to claim her prize.

. . . And the key question for Democratic voters . . . is whether they will allow themselves to be so wooed by Sanders’ gendered appeal that they abandon the woman who seemed poised to make history."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/08/u...nders.html?_r=0

"There is a special place in hell for women who don't help each other."

This bigoted old women thinks any women who does not support Hilary is going to hell.

What a stupid old women.

Originally posted by Robtard
Your Clinton Derangement Syndrome is on high today, buddy.

It was just a silly slip of the tongue, nothing serious should be read into it. She goofed; it was mildly embarrassing. That is all.

It is not even mildly embarrassing. News anchors, debate moderators, political pundits, and others have all slipped and called Hillary "President Clinton." They were likely thinking of a hypothetical scenario in which she was president on which to base a statement or to ask a question and their mouth got ahead of their brain. So what? Like it means anything. This is literally the stupidest thing we could be talking about right now.

Can't be as stupid as someone who belongs to a satanic cult.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Can't be as stupid as someone who belongs to a satanic cult.

Hail, Satan.

Why worship a horned goat?

Like can't your kind come up with a better looking "god" instead of worshiping something that looks like a genetic mutation gone wrong.

That's Baphomet

Your point? It's a ugly disgusting vial perversion.

My point is that it's not Satan, so you shouldn't lose your cookies over it; not that you should lose your cookies over Satan either, but still

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Steinem on why many younger women do not support Clinton as much as older women:

"I mean, first of all, women get more radical as we get older, because . . . I don't mean to overgeneralize . . . but men tend to get more conservative because they gain power as the age, and women get more radical because they lose power as they age.

So it's kind of not fair to measure most women by the standard of most men because they're going to get more activist as they get older.

And when you're young, you're thinking, 'Where are the boys? The boys are with Bernie, or you know . . .'"

If anything, that statement is ageist, not sexist. It also has the benefit of being true.

Younger women, who are experiencing the height of their societal power, are more insulated from the effects of sexism, and less concerned with feminist issues.

Marion Just, who has been a political science professor at Wellesley College for 45 years, said, "The question, I think, is how concerned [young women are] about having a woman elected to the presidency. This generation has a rather optimistic worldview, which is probably not deserved by the way things have been going for women in this country."

The flippant, "Where are the boys," remark has less to do with sexuality, and more to do with optimistic young women who do not feel the burden of sexism, identifying power, in this case young men, and siding with it.

Thirty years and millions of dollars of Republican attacks do not hurt either. All because she is a woman who did not know her place. She dared, as First Lady, to do something substantive for the American people, by proposing a universal health care plan, instead of being content to pick out China patterns. And the attacks on her character have not stopped since.

There is also an undercurrent of sexism, which Steinem also addresses:

"But there is a deep reason, I think, with women often . . . because we are mostly raised by women, we associate female authority with childhood emotionality, irrationality . . . we see men's authority later, and it seems more rational and appropriate to the outside world.

We will really only be able to recognize human talent in all of its forms when men are raising children as much as women are and women are in the public world as much as men are."

Many people feel infantilized by female authority.

Mark Joseph Stern adds:

"In any nominating race featuring a female candidate, there will always be a male alternative whose gender allows him to do everything his female opponent cannot.

[In 2008,] Clinton was boxed in completely: If she stuck with her tough-minded pragmatism, she would continue to be depicted as an unlikeable shrew. (Fox News: 'When Barack Obama speaks, men hear "Take off for the future!" When Hillary Clinton speaks, men hear "Take out the garbage!"'😉 If she campaigned on her emotions like Obama, she would be mocked mercilessly as weak (at best) or manipulative (at worst) by her foes in the press.

This time around, Clinton changed her tune. Aware that her tough demeanor put off some voters, she presented herself as a positive, cheerful pragmatist. “A progressive who likes to get things done.” A warrior for the middle class—but a pleasant and amiable one, not a calculating establishment politician. This, too, made Clinton an easy target for her opponents in the media. By attempting to seem genuine, the theory went, Clinton proved herself to be a fraud: Anyone who had to try to seem genuine could not possibly be genuine.

In stepped Sanders: Brash, no-nonsense, straight-talking, uncompromisingly liberal. (Or so he liked to claim: In actuality, Sanders has a spotty record on gay rights and a terrible record on guns.) Oh, and he’s a man. Democrats flocked to him as a more progressive alternative to Clinton, despite the fact that his legislative strategy hinges on a “political revolution” that will apparently involve Republicans instantly dematerializing upon his inauguration. He and Clinton have mostly minor policy disputes, but Sanders is heralded as a true progressive, even though his most liberal proposals are politically dead in the water.

Still, Sanders’ angry populist demagogue shtick goes over extraordinarily well with young liberals, especially white ones, who are weary of horse-trading incremental change. As Rebecca Traister recently noted, Clinton would be committing political suicide if she were equally loud and indignant and unkempt and fiery. 'No one likes a woman who yells loudly about revolution,' Traister wrote. Hillary is, once again, boxed in by gender politics—and once again, a male alternative has swept in to claim her prize.

. . . And the key question for Democratic voters . . . is whether they will allow themselves to be so wooed by Sanders’ gendered appeal that they abandon the woman who seemed poised to make history."

Well, Steinem took back her words, in fact stating the opposite of what you explain "young women are activist and feminist in greater numbers than ever before". (http://cnn.it/1nYnhmy). I don't disagree that the statement was ageist as well.

As for the second part I agree, and have stated so before, the hatred towards Hillary definitely has a large aspect of sexism towards it. Although we shouldn't completely discount that voters are just fed up with "establishment" candidates. The same angry "lets do something big now!!!" attitude that benefits Trump is also benefitting Sanders.

Under Sanders, income and jobs would soar, economists say: http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/08/news/economy/sanders-income-jobs/

"Mark Joseph Stern adds"

I read his opinion piece and while he mentions in the first paragraph things that might make Hillary less popular the rest of the time he focuses on the female aspect in his opinion.

But my strong suspicion is that, in any nominating race featuring a female candidate, there will always be a Bernie Sanders—a male alternative whose gender allows him to do everything his female opponent cannot. And the key question for Democratic voters, post-Iowa, is whether they will allow themselves to be so wooed by Sanders’ gendered appeal that they abandon the woman who seemed poised to make history.

And he sounds as much a bigot as someone who wouldn't vote for HIllary because of her gender.

Meant to say sexist not bigot but not able to edit my post.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Steinem on why many younger women do not support Clinton as much as older women:

"I mean, first of all, women get more radical as we get older, because . . . I don't mean to overgeneralize . . . but men tend to get more conservative because they gain power as the age, and women get more radical because they lose power as they age.

So it's kind of not fair to measure most women by the standard of most men because they're going to get more activist as they get older.

And when you're young, you're thinking, 'Where are the boys? The boys are with Bernie, or you know . . .'"

If anything, that statement is ageist, not sexist. It also has the benefit of being true.

Younger women, who are experiencing the height of their societal power, are more insulated from the effects of sexism, and less concerned with feminist issues.

Marion Just, who has been a political science professor at Wellesley College for 45 years, said, "The question, I think, is how concerned [young women are] about having a woman elected to the presidency. This generation has a rather optimistic worldview, which is probably not deserved by the way things have been going for women in this country."

The flippant, "Where are the boys," remark has less to do with sexuality, and more to do with optimistic young women who do not feel the burden of sexism, identifying power, in this case young men, and siding with it.

Thirty years and millions of dollars of Republican attacks do not hurt either. All because she is a woman who did not know her place. She dared, as First Lady, to do something substantive for the American people, by proposing a universal health care plan, instead of being content to pick out China patterns. And the attacks on her character have not stopped since.

There is also an undercurrent of sexism, which Steinem also addresses:

"But there is a deep reason, I think, with women often . . . because we are mostly raised by women, we associate female authority with childhood emotionality, irrationality . . . we see men's authority later, and it seems more rational and appropriate to the outside world.

We will really only be able to recognize human talent in all of its forms when men are raising children as much as women are and women are in the public world as much as men are."

Many people feel infantilized by female authority.

Mark Joseph Stern adds:

"In any nominating race featuring a female candidate, there will always be a male alternative whose gender allows him to do everything his female opponent cannot.

[In 2008,] Clinton was boxed in completely: If she stuck with her tough-minded pragmatism, she would continue to be depicted as an unlikeable shrew. (Fox News: 'When Barack Obama speaks, men hear "Take off for the future!" When Hillary Clinton speaks, men hear "Take out the garbage!"'😉 If she campaigned on her emotions like Obama, she would be mocked mercilessly as weak (at best) or manipulative (at worst) by her foes in the press.

This time around, Clinton changed her tune. Aware that her tough demeanor put off some voters, she presented herself as a positive, cheerful pragmatist. “A progressive who likes to get things done.” A warrior for the middle class—but a pleasant and amiable one, not a calculating establishment politician. This, too, made Clinton an easy target for her opponents in the media. By attempting to seem genuine, the theory went, Clinton proved herself to be a fraud: Anyone who had to try to seem genuine could not possibly be genuine.

In stepped Sanders: Brash, no-nonsense, straight-talking, uncompromisingly liberal. (Or so he liked to claim: In actuality, Sanders has a spotty record on gay rights and a terrible record on guns.) Oh, and he’s a man. Democrats flocked to him as a more progressive alternative to Clinton, despite the fact that his legislative strategy hinges on a “political revolution” that will apparently involve Republicans instantly dematerializing upon his inauguration. He and Clinton have mostly minor policy disputes, but Sanders is heralded as a true progressive, even though his most liberal proposals are politically dead in the water.

Still, Sanders’ angry populist demagogue shtick goes over extraordinarily well with young liberals, especially white ones, who are weary of horse-trading incremental change. As Rebecca Traister recently noted, Clinton would be committing political suicide if she were equally loud and indignant and unkempt and fiery. 'No one likes a woman who yells loudly about revolution,' Traister wrote. Hillary is, once again, boxed in by gender politics—and once again, a male alternative has swept in to claim her prize.

. . . And the key question for Democratic voters . . . is whether they will allow themselves to be so wooed by Sanders’ gendered appeal that they abandon the woman who seemed poised to make history."


🤨

Young women are less concerned with feminist issues? What? Gloria Steinem said herself more young women identify as feminist than ever before.

"Younger women, who are experiencing the height of their societal power" ...Complete BS. Height of objectification maybe. Young women don't feel the burden of sexism?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/feminism-project/poll/

Stop hating on feminist and feminist issues, Sanc

Originally posted by Flyattractor
[b] I always find it funny how People on the Left are so eager to find excuses for people's extremely bad behavior when it concerns the policies that they support. [/B]

That's.... really rich ^^ 'Specially considering I'm defending Donald Trump here too, as well as probably like a dozen other rich/political people we could find out went to the parties with some research.

And the point is, "not knowing someone who threw a party did a crime that is not public," is not actually bad behavior.

No-one is defending the criminal, that's bad behavior, but, going to a party where your host has secrets you don't know about is not.

And see, this is a problem with some of the negative campaigning that goes on- you start getting so used to thinking of someone being bad that you accuse people of defending bad behavior... when the subject in question didn't do much or, in this case, anything bad. Hillary and Trump are actually flat-out innocent here.

The best attacks are accurate *without* overreaching, and accusing people of defending bad behavior that didn't happen, is, well, again, pretty rich.

Originally posted by snowdragon

Employing the vote for me because your a girl/woman like me is a super weak and not near as likely to work as it did with obama and the black vote.

Hillary has a balance to strike- A lot of people have said stuff that is, totally, sexist ('stop voting with your vagina' being one I've seen), and calling that out is the smart thing to do, and she shouldn't not-call that out just because people will accuse her of playing the 'woman card' whenever she does so. At the same time, yea, Hillary supporters should not say that women have to vote for her because she's a woman, that's incorrect and is a bad thing to say, more likely to turn people off.

She really has voted and supported a lot of pro-women stuff throughout her career, as one of her most consistent issues, so there's quite a solid argument for women supporting her regardless of her gender, and IMO that's a better angle to push and should be what's emphasized.

People don't seem to care as much about the historicness of voting a woman president as they do a black president, like you say.

Oh, here's one that's not directly primary related, but it's indirectly so, so I figure I may as well post it here:

A court has invalidated parts of North Carolina's redistricting plan. They've got two weeks to fix it before the primary.

Why?

Just look:

A 120-mile long district that covers 6 counties, and another across 24, including lots of little spindly bits that give it a total border length of 1,319 miles.

(Also, why now? Because, it bounced between a couple courts before they decided who gets to decide, and they do want it as far in front of the actual *elections* as possible)

Originally posted by Q99

People don't seem to care as much about the historicness of voting a woman president as they do a black president, like you say.

I'm not sure that's true. Obama had both the historic chance of being the first black president AND he was the young, outside guy, not really establishment, "change", at the same time (and still only won against Clinton by a relatively slim margin).

I think if someone that had the image of Sanders and was a woman were running (perhaps Elizabeth Warren) they'd destroy Clinton.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm not sure that's true. Obama had both the historic chance of being the first black president AND he was the young, outside guy, not really establishment, "change", at the same time (and still only won against Clinton by a relatively slim margin).

I think if someone that had the image of Sanders and was a woman were running (perhaps Elizabeth Warren) they'd destroy Clinton.

Well, Warren has a lot else going for her too. I'd totally vote her, she has a couple other advantages over Sanders.

And there's the matter you do get a fair number of negative votes, people who go straight to "I'm not going to vote X just because they're a Y," and view the candidate being a Y as a stunt and a minus rather than a positive. And just because it's a positive with one group doesn't make it a positive for another.

Hm, this is something that's really hard to test, isn't it? We can't exactly run trials with the same candidates in different race and gender...

Wow it is getting really Nasty between Bill and Bernie.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/bill-clinton-attacks-bernie-sanders/460467/

Coming from the guy who said "This is all a fairy tail."

"Obama is a Chicago Thug"

and "this guy would have been driving my car just yesterday"