Orange Order stands by grand master comments: Homosexuality is wrong

Started by Bardock428 pages

Originally posted by Nibedicus
There will always be tiny gender nuances that can't be avoided. But that is no longer "society creating an imposed rift" but genders freely expressing their gender identity (there is nothing wrong with that).

And them being aware that genders are different and wanting to play with kids of the same gender has anything to do with mysoginism nor has anything to do with any kind of society-imposed rifts.

I wish that's how it was, but that's just not how it is in reality, sadly.

Originally posted by psmith81992
I don't think it's a bad thing. I cringe when parents want to raise their kids gender neutral. It's so weird.

My wife does that. Uses blue, white, brown, red a lot cuz it is gender neutral. Clothes that are unisex. Sometimes even combs her hair all boy style.

Daughter still plays like a girl, talks like a girl and cuddles like a girl tho. Her boy cousins just like to run around breaking stuff. Lol.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I wish that's how it was, but that's just not how it is in reality, sadly.

We see reality differently.

You must not be a parent.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
We see reality differently.

You must not be a parent.

I am not a parent, just a person seeing how people treat people differently because of gender (be it parents, teachers, the media, peers, etc.)

Take psmith in this very thread, he just said he finds it weird when parents try to raise their children gender neutral...that's the reality, not whatever utopia you imagine to live in (I do even believe that you believe it, people are extremely blind to the status quo).

Alright, let's please not get into any wider arguments about atheists etc.

Re: the topic. As I am sure most of you are aware, I am pro-gay equality (which is increasingly the cultural default in the west now, luckily) and abhor organisations that resist such things.

However, the objections put up for this as a broad attack are valid. This is the Orange Order- this is definitely an extremist example. Heck, the OO won't even let you join if you mare married to a Catholic, let alone being gay. Even for Ireland- a place where religious conservatism thrives- they are considered deeply conservative. They are at least a century out of date in their culture so this is a. no surprise at all and b. not really a reflection on religious approaches in general. This isn't about the Christian Right- you can't draw that sort of parallel. It's about deep seated cultural tensions between Catholics and Protestants, which in most of the world are now meaningless but sadly live on in the minds of small people.

When it comes to dealing with the Orange Order, the questions we ask are "How can we stop their annual marches causing sectarian violence?" and 'let's make sure they are still not directly linked to paramilitary terrorist organisations'. The sort of organisation where, at the start of the century, one of them was caught on interview saying that if Scotland went independent they would consider a terrorist campaign there to protect their protestantism- he later apologised for that, but that's the kind of ground we are dealing with here.

It's a section of society that much work has been done in the last two decades to stop the point where people were being blown up and shot, so that they are still homophobic does seem rather trivial right now. There's a giant religious tension that needs to be worked out of that community.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am not a parent, just a person seeing how people treat people differently because of gender (be it parents, teachers, the media, peers, etc.)

Take psmith in this very thread, he just said he finds it weird when parents try to raise their children gender neutral...that's the reality, not whatever utopia you imagine to live in (I do even believe that you believe it, people are extremely blind to the status quo).

Being a parent changes your world view.

You don't know me. Don't presume to.

Nothing wrong with being a parent and assigning gender roles IMO. There are negatives to gender roles, but what doesn't? As long as you don't teach your kids to be douchebags, they'll be fine.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
You do have a point.

That is why I used to prefer the comics and movie forums. Easier to sate my hunger for debate there as I have little emotional stake on the matter (as I really do not care that much about fictional characters). General forum debates get me a little heated (first time I debated here, I got too emotional and got my logic all jumbled up) as they are actual issues I feel strongly about.

Sadly, there aren't any decent new topics in the movie forums and comic forums these days.

We all know so little about most topics, it would be nice if I could consider this forum a place to expand that knowledge. Too few threads worth the effort anymore, though, though I don't begrudge anyone who does continue to post. There obviously an appeal to it, even when most threads can't stay civil.

Might be time for another break soon. I took a nearly year long hiatus from KMC at one point, and it was quite a good decision. Helped renew my interest once I returned.

I think I've said this before Digi- you've got to stop trying to run a philosophical argument online to its end. There is no end and there is always a peak point- very early on- where the argument subsequently loses all quality and just becomes everyone re-stating what they already said, often increasingly agitatedly.

Say your piece and cut out of arguments early. Else you'll keep feeling that frustration. There's never any obligation to reply to anyone. The most you can ever hope for is to express yourself well; this does not correlate with some kind of 'that's all sorted out now' victory.

Expressing yourself well, however, is a victory in of itself. It can actually be very handy in helping to assemble your own thoughts.

It's a good point. But you know me. Ever the idealist. 😉

Anyway, I'll stop derailing.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
My wife does that. Uses blue, white, brown, red a lot cuz it is gender neutral. Clothes that are unisex. Sometimes even combs her hair all boy style.

Daughter still plays like a girl, talks like a girl and cuddles like a girl tho. Her boy cousins just like to run around breaking stuff. Lol.

That's interesting, I didn't know everything would turn out normal. Good to know.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that almost no one having a go at the OP has any clue about the Orange Order and what they stand for and how they manifest their views.

If they did they wouldn't be so quick to defend them. Especially any Catholic faith christians in here.

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that almost no one having a go at the OP has any clue about the Orange Order and what they stand for and how they manifest their views.

If they did they wouldn't be so quick to defend them. Especially any Catholic faith christians in here.

Nobody is defending the organization, if you bothered to do any reading at all. The Op combined them with all right wingers, calling them filthy/radical/whatever other bias he has. That made him lose all credibility rather instantly and the defense comes against baseless generalizations.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Nobody is defending the organization, if you bothered to do any reading at all. The Op combined them with all right wingers, calling them filthy/radical/whatever other bias he has. That made him lose all credibility rather instantly and the defense comes against baseless generalizations.

This was taken at an orange order March

That's all that needs to be said.

Originally posted by jaden101
This was taken at an orange order March

That's all that needs to be said.

I'm going to repost what I just said until you start reading.

Nobody is defending the organization, if you bothered to do any reading at all. The Op combined them with all right wingers, calling them filthy/radical/whatever other bias he has. That made him lose all credibility rather instantly and the defense comes against baseless generalizations.
Originally posted by psmith81992
I'm going to repost what I just said until you start reading.

How about I just read this that you wrote

Further, calling the far right organization filthy shows exactly where your bias lies and the entire point of this post.
Originally posted by jaden101
How about I just read this that you wrote

That is a typo, what I meant was "calling far right organizations filthy". That's more consistent with what I just said.

Originally posted by psmith81992
That is a typo, what I meant was "calling far right organizations filthy". That's more consistent with what I just said.

What else was it you said?

Zero hate here?

As I said, you apparently don't know much about the Orange Order.

They go hand in hand with rampant sectarianism in northern Ireland. Many of their members are at the forefront of the 11th night "celebrations" with their burning effigies of catholics and banners with "kill all taigs" written on them.

Their insistence on marching through Catholic areas every year is just inciting sectarianism.

They're generally not a nice bunch. Much more towards the KKK and Westboro Baptist Church end of the Christian right spectrum than the tea party end.

So in that sense the OP ain't wrong about them.

The Christian right does encompass a broad range though and not all of them should be lumped with the OO. I might not agree with most of the Christian right on many issues but I do recognise the differences.

What else was it you said?

Zero hate here?

As I said, you apparently don't know much about the Orange Order.


Not sure what you're talking about here, as usual. I know about as much as you, aka you googled them just like I did.

So in that sense the OP ain't wrong about them.

Except the Op also said "Christians are a bunch of liars", which is an ignorant statement.

The Christian right does encompass a broad range though and not all of them should be lumped with the OO. I might not agree with most of the Christian right on many issues but I do recognise the differences.

The Op lumps them all together, although only a small minority of religious groups pull this crap.

Originally posted by Bardock42
To be fair, I did not think it a reasonable suggestion in the sense that it's not going to happen. It's not suggesting ignoring the bible either, it's interpreting it in a manner in line with modern society (as all bible based faiths do anyways). I do think that the dislike for gays (as opposed to the lack of dislike for shrimp, condemned in the same passages) stems from bigotry and hatred however.

I also think there is far more room, from a New Testament Jesus perspective, for accepting homosexuals, loving them, and not judging them.

In my unhumable and very arrogant opinion, "Christians hate gays" is a nonsensical statement. And yet, that phrase exists and it is accurate of some Christians.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Not sure what you're talking about here, as usual. I know about as much as you, aka you googled them just like I did.

I live in scotland. I deal with the sectarianism on an almost daily basis. So I know far more about it than you do. They had a March on my birthday that practically went past my front door. I've seen someone killed in the street over the kind of sectarianism the OO promotes.