Black Lives Matter vs All Lives Matter

Check this shit out. A female white cop in southern Florida was denied service by a black P-O-S at Arbie's simply because she was a cop:

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/09/03/arby-s-apologizes-after-cop-was-allegedly-refused-service/21231330/

IF this had been a white person refusing service to a black one then you can bet they would've fired his ass on the spot and the media would be reporting and following up on story for a week or more. Since he was black though he still hasn't been fired yet. I will boycott all Arbie's restaurants until his black ass is fired.

Yeah, "Black Lives Matter" is having such a positive influence, huh? 🙄

The manager who actually denied the cop service has been fired. The cashier is on indefinite suspension.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-pembroke-pines-arbys-flap-20150902-story.html

LOL. Quit trying to shift the blame like you libs always do. The woman said the manager "had to force Davenport to process her card". From the aol Article: "Davenport maintains his actions were simply a misunderstood joke that's since been blown out-of-proportion". Davenport is the little punk kid who denied service to her.

I'm not shifting the blame. If you weren't so caught up in these pointless battle lines you draw, you'd see that.

Both articles point out that the manager walked up and said "He doesn't want to serve you because you are a police officer."

According to Davenport, he got busy then the manager acted like an idiot. "After finding himself so busy with other customers that he could not complete Martin's transaction, Davenport said he asked Mirabal for help. That’s when Mirabal made his remark, Davenport said."

Either way, Mirabal has been fired. Davenport is indefinitely suspended. Seems reasonable enough, since everyone admits Mirabal made the dumb comment, while we don't know for certain if Davenport was actually refusing the card or helping other customers.

Originally posted by Newjak
where are you getting these numbers? I'm trying to verify them but am not finding anything that say the majority of black people support ALM.

I posted it a page or two back in this very thread.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The BLM movement has lots of really shitty racism and violence in it. As many as 2/3 of the black people do not support or directly oppose BLM.

By the numbers:

"Thirty-one percent (31%) of black voters say black lives matter is closest to their own views, but just nine percent (9%) of whites and 10% of other minority voters agree. Eighty-one percent (81%) of whites and 76% of other minority voters opt instead for all lives matter, and 64% of blacks agree. - See more at: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/tom-blumer/2015/08/23/barely-news-two-thirds-blacks-prefer-all-lives-matter-over-black#sthash.FvhNvofs.dpuf"

A comfortable majority of blacks support the ALM movement.

As well as all other racial demographics.

Also, do you support the BLM group? If so, what do you think about their more violent and racist elements?

Also, I asked Bardock42 a question in this post which he avoided.

I'll ask you (but I think I already know the answer): do you support the BLM group?

Originally posted by Star428
Check this shit out. A female white cop in southern Florida was denied service by a black P-O-S at Arbie's simply because she was a cop:

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/09/03/arby-s-apologizes-after-cop-was-allegedly-refused-service/21231330/

IF this had been a white person refusing service to a black one then you can bet they would've fired his ass on the spot and the media would be reporting and following up on story for a week or more. Since he was black though he still hasn't been fired yet. I will boycott all Arbie's restaurants until his black ass is fired.

Yeah, "Black Lives Matter" is having such a positive influence, huh? 🙄

A white cop not being served is terrible, and it shouldn't happen. But cops being significantly more likely to shoot and kill someone if they are black is just a couple magnitudes worse.

Originally posted by Bardock42
A white cop not being served is terrible, and it shouldn't happen. But cops being significantly more likely to shoot and kill someone if they are black is just a couple magnitudes worse.

Another joke post from the court jester. Look at this sweeping generalization or just a troll post.

Prove they look to shoot black people cause they are black. You still think Michael Brown was innocent.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Another joke post from the court jester. Look at this sweeping generalization or just a troll post.

Prove they look to shoot black people cause they are black. You still think Michael Brown was innocent.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis

Originally posted by Bardock42
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis

So that proves your point? Um no.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I posted it a page or two back in this very thread.

Also, I asked Bardock42 a question in this post which he avoided.

I'll ask you (but I think I already know the answer): do you support the BLM group?

I'm trying to take my time in my reply to this post because I'm not trying to have a debate but a conversation with people. And I'm trying to voice my concerns on this topic because it still seems weird to me.

For instance in the poll this line jumped out at me, "Yes, black lives matter, but don’t all lives matter? That seems to be the subject of some political dispute.

When asked which statement is closest to their own views, 78% of Likely U.S. Voters say all lives matter"

This seems like a loaded question. When asked between those two statements without any other context I would hope most people would say All Lives Matter is closer to their own views. That doesn't change this is a comparison of mottos and not the meat of the movements.

I think better questions would be do you feel that there is an unjust bias against black people in the US and do they feel BLM is trying to address that. Do they feel ALM is trying to address that.

I've already said normally I would agree with you that if I had to pick between two slogans I would always pick AllLivesMatter but I think that ignores the context of this situations.

Which leads me to answering your question. Do I support BLM? Which to me is not an easy question to answer. I support their core message. Which is there is an issue in the justice society where statistically a bias exists against black and we need to end that bias.

Now there is a lot of information and claims being thrown around about BLM. For instance there are claims that BLM supports violent actions against cops. Or that it supports violent altercations against white people. Which if it were true would mean I could not in good faith support a movement that backs those kinds of actions. Still I can not find any official statement from the BLM that supports this or from BLM officials saying they agree.

So the far the best I can find is some people randomly pushing violent acts that may mention Black Lives Matter but as far as I can tell have no official capacity in BLM movement. So it's hard for me to hold those individual cases against BLM. Even the great Civil Rights movements of the past have had violent individuals attempt to fall under their brand.

Of course BLM as far as I've found have not spoken against these violent individuals but whether that is because they don't want any association with those people or they condone the violence secretly I can not tell.

So that's a lot of information to get to what you were probably hoping was an easy yes/no question. So this is my official response. I currently support the central message I have found for them and currently support BLM as they seem to be main force for that message. Should it come to light they are in fact endorsing violent behavior on other citizens I will no longer support them as an organization.

Now this once again is BLM but this thread is also about ALM. And in my research for ALM I have once again run into interesting issues in the context of this discussion. BLM has an official group. They have a website they are rolling out and they have an official facebook page where they can organize and showcase their message. When I look for the same thing about ALM I can not find the same thing. They aren't a central organization organizing. I can not find where they are trying to raise justice inequality for black people. Heck I can not find an official website that states their core message at all.

Even on face book pages, I say pages because I have not found a central ALM movement page yet, they don't seem to bringing any focus to an issue at all. In fact the only thing I can seem to find on them is that they are in opposition to BLM. Trying to for some reason discredit them and poke fun BLM. Which once again I don't understand why as BLM is trying to push a message that is important.

ALM just seems so weird to me. It just seems to be a feel good motto people are throwing out because they don't like the BLM motto. Even though ALM isn't actually supporting anything. It also serves as a focal point for some venemous people to use to undermine any real discussion on the bias black people face in the enforcement of law in our country.

I don't know why rational people keep allowing this ALM vs BLM debate to continue. There shouldn't be a debate between the two. If you don't like BLM's slogan talk to their marketing department but ALM just seems to serve as a way to break down discussion that BLM is trying to wage.

Like I've said there are so many interest groups that try to raise awareness for specific failures in our society especially in the context of certain individuals groups. Like when certain movements say Gay Deserve Marriage I don't hear people say that's discriminatory All People Deserve Marriage. We understand that the Same Sex Marriage movement is talking in the context of their social injustices and we accept that.

So why are we allowing people to do that BLM and accepting it as okay.

Originally posted by Newjak
Thank you.

I'm trying to take my time in my reply to this post because I'm not trying to have a debate but a conversation with people. And I'm trying to voice my concerns on this topic because it still seems weird to me.

For instance in the poll this line jumped out at me, "Yes, black lives matter, but don’t all lives matter? That seems to be the subject of some political dispute.

When asked which statement is closest to their own views, 78% of Likely U.S. Voters say all lives matter"

This seems like a loaded question. When asked between those two statements without any other context I would hope most people would say All Lives Matter is closer to their own views. That doesn't change this is a comparison of mottos and not the meat of the movements.

I think better questions would be do you feel that there is an unjust bias against black people in the US and do they feel BLM is trying to address that. Do they feel ALM is trying to address that.

I've already said normally I would agree with you that if I had to pick between two slogans I would always pick AllLivesMatter but I think that ignores the context of this situations.

Which leads me to answering your question. Do I support BLM? Which to me is not an easy question to answer. I support their core message. Which is there is an issue in the justice society where statistically a bias exists against black and we need to end that bias.

Now there is a lot of information and claims being thrown around about BLM. For instance there are claims that BLM supports violent actions against cops. Or that it supports violent altercations against white people. Which if it were true would mean I could not in good faith support a movement that backs those kinds of actions. Still I can not find any official statement from the BLM that supports this or from BLM officials saying they agree.

So the far the best I can find is some people randomly pushing violent acts that may mention Black Lives Matter but as far as I can tell have no official capacity in BLM movement. So it's hard for me to hold those individual cases against BLM. Even the great Civil Rights movements of the past have had violent individuals attempt to fall under their brand.

Of course BLM as far as I've found have not spoken against these violent individuals but whether that is because they don't want any association with those people or they condone the violence secretly I can not tell.

So that's a lot of information to get to what you were probably hoping was an easy yes/no question. So this is my official response. I currently support the central message I have found for them and currently support BLM as they seem to be main force for that message. Should it come to light they are in fact endorsing violent behavior on other citizens I will no longer support them as an organization.

Now this once again is BLM but this thread is also about ALM. And in my research for ALM I have once again run into interesting issues in the context of this discussion. BLM has an official group. They have a website they are rolling out and they have an official facebook page where they can organize and showcase their message. When I look for the same thing about ALM I can not find the same thing. They aren't a central organization organizing. I can not find where they are trying to raise justice inequality for black people. Heck I can not find an official website that states their core message at all.

Even on face book pages, I say pages because I have not found a central ALM movement page yet, they don't seem to bringing any focus to an issue at all. In fact the only thing I can seem to find on them is that they are in opposition to BLM. Trying to for some reason discredit them and poke fun BLM. Which once again I don't understand why as BLM is trying to push a message that is important.

ALM just seems so weird to me. It just seems to be a feel good motto people are throwing out because they don't like the BLM motto. Even though ALM isn't actually supporting anything. It also serves as a focal point for some venemous people to use to undermine any real discussion on the bias black people face in the enforcement of law in our country.

I don't know why rational people keep allowing this ALM vs BLM debate to continue. There shouldn't be a debate between the two. If you don't like BLM's slogan talk to their marketing department but ALM just seems to serve as a way to break down discussion that BLM is trying to wage.

Like I've said there are so many interest groups that try to raise awareness for specific failures in our society especially in the context of certain individuals groups. Like when certain movements say Gay Deserve Marriage I don't hear people say that's discriminatory All People Deserve Marriage. We understand that the Same Sex Marriage movement is talking in the context of their social injustices and we accept that.

So why are we allowing people to do that BLM and accepting it as okay.

This is a top-notch post and I enjoyed reading it.

The only thing I could contribute or address is your "loaded question" comment. I think both versions of that question are loaded because both require some sort of knowledge (which can imply an inherent bias) of the entire situation.

I honestly cannot think of a way to word it to eliminate the loaded question issue.

Perhaps disbar anyone who is not aware of both groups? But then that becomes a political question rather than a pure polling question (because people will start to divide based on their position for either movement).

Okay...here's a compromise...

Have a one paragraph summary of each movement and then a paragraph about why people in the ALM movement started their group.

Then ask people which movement they think best represents their values.

And to keep it fair, the core values of each should be maintained with none of the fringe participants from either being represented in either of those descriptive paragraphs.

My idea is similar to what they do to poll potential movie goers: to see how well a concept in a up-and-coming movie would be received by potential move-goers (they want to capture a pure opinion and not a bias so they set their questions up like that when getting a feel for how their movie could do before going to production (or post-production)).

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is a top-notch post and I enjoyed reading it.

The only thing I could contribute or address is your "loaded question" comment. I think both versions of that question are loaded because both require some sort of knowledge (which can imply an inherent bias) of the entire situation.

I honestly cannot think of a way to word it to eliminate the loaded question issue.

Perhaps disbar anyone who is not aware of both groups? But then that becomes a political question rather than a pure polling question (because people will start to divide based on their position for either movement).

Okay...here's a compromise...

Have a one paragraph summary of each movement and then a paragraph about why people in the ALM movement started their group.

Then ask people which movement they think best represents their values.

And to keep it fair, the core values of each should be maintained with none of the fringe participants from either being represented in either of those descriptive paragraphs.

My idea is similar to what they do to poll potential movie goers: to see how well a concept in a up-and-coming movie would be received by potential move-goers (they want to capture a pure opinion and not a bias so they set their questions up like that when getting a feel for how their movie could do before going to production (or post-production)).

And since the editing feature bug still exists, I'll outline why I think BLM is shit...

Here is a rundown of some of the major issues with the BLM movement:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/08/race-and-criminal-justice

If a less bias, less violent, and less dishonest group pops up that has some of the BLM ideas but looks more like the ALM movement, yeah, I'd endorse it. But I cannot endorse the BLM movement. Too many problems with it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
And since the editing feature bug still exists, I'll outline why I think BLM is shit...

Here is a rundown of some of the major issues with the BLM movement:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/08/race-and-criminal-justice

If a less bias, less violent, and less dishonest group pops up that has some of the BLM ideas but looks more like the ALM movement, yeah, I'd endorse it. But I cannot endorse the BLM movement. Too many problems with it.

Not so much the protests while in rallies. That is pretty common. It is more of the spend less money on police forces idea. I actually think we need to retrain and put a little more money into the police force.

Although there a few numbers in that article that is suspect. Namely I think it's statement that most people in prison are there on violent crimes is false. I think the majority of people in prison are there for drug related offenses. Unless they are saying if you lump every violent crime together then it might be more than those in for drugs.

Originally posted by Newjak
If that article is correct there are some serious issues I would take.

Not so much the protests while in rallies. That is pretty common. It is more of the spend less money on police forces idea. I actually think we need to retrain and put a little more money into the police force.

Although there a few numbers in that article that is suspect. Namely I think it's statement that most people in prison are there on violent crimes is false. I think the majority of people in prison are there for drug related offenses. Unless they are saying if you lump every violent crime together then it might be more than those in for drugs.

I looked it up on Wikipedia. A bit more than 52% of state prison inmates are in there for violent crimes. Wikipedia uses this link:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p09.pdf

For federal prisons, it is much much lower: a bit more than 7%.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I looked it up on Wikipedia. A bit more than 52% of state prison inmates are in there for violent crimes. Wikipedia uses this link:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/p09.pdf

For federal prisons, it is much much lower: a bit more than 7%.

Here is an interesting story that happened in my own backyard basically:

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150910/beverly/black-lives-matter-sign-removed-from-beverly-unitarian-church

For those that do not want to read the article: Church had a "black lives matter" sign up. It went viral, some people approved of it, others did not. The sign was eventually changed to "Life Matters Risk Loving Everyone".

Is this a positive development? A negative one? Was the church right to change the sign or do you feel they should of either left it as is or removed it entirely?

I found it interesting that "BLM" has now taken on different connotations in this country because some people espousing the movement have shown apparently "anti white" and "anti cop" tendencies.

is it true that black lives matter started out as "hands up don't shoot" but then changed to black lives matter once it was discovered that mike brown didn't in fact get shot with his hands up but rather got shot with his hands inside the cops squad car and reaching for the cop's gun?

or did stefan molyneux make that up?

YouTube video

Well it could very well of spawned from "Hands up don't shoot" but I can't say for sure.

Another interesting bit of news is the officers being charged for the Freddie Gray death were trying to get the trial moved, but that was rejected. They didn't think they'd get a fair trial due to all the publicity there, but for me that excuse doesn't hold any weight anymore because with social media it doesn't matter where you go in this country, people will know about it. I think either way those guys are screwed because any jury will already know the city has already settled with Gray's family.

If black lives really mattered to them they'd stop blacks from killing each other. In the time it took me to write this more blacks were killed by other blacks than an entire year of being killed by cops combined.