Kylo Ren vs Darth Vader

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Finn did better against him then he had any right to, and it knocks Kylo down a few pegs for me on the dueling ability side.

Comparing Finn to Luke doesn't work because Luke is a force user and by that point had had [some] formal training in how to use his powers by one of the most venerable Jedi who'd ever lived. Finn on the other hand is just some dude*, and he actually put up a better fight then Rey did until she went super-sayan.

*As far as we know. 313 Super-Jedi Finn ****ing when.

Yeah but Kylo is clearly no Darth Vader and he was seriously wounded. Finn has also probably had a lot more training than Luke had by the end of ESB. Not in lightsabers, but in general combat.

And naw, even before then Rey did better than Finn. She was giving a lot of ground but that proved better than Finn's "get completely owned" style imo.

I agree though that they're probably going for more OT style fights where force users aren't all that great. Its a good move for the movies but Ren's not too impressive for these versus discussions atm.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, Maul was pretty unstable in TCW. And Kreia was polished and bland in KOTOR 2. 👆

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph, Maul was pretty unstable in TCW.

Up until he got his madness "cured", sure. But not in a threatening way. And afterwards he was unstable in that he was an extremely generic villain who snarled every line in a way that made it completely impossible to take him seriously.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Kreia was polished and bland in KOTOR 2. 👆

Swing and a miss.

Kreia's blandness is more excusable because we actually get to know her. Same with Maul instability. Maul suffers more from not nearly enough character development than anything.

Neph,

So what you're saying is... Instability is a plus as long as it's not in a PT character. Gotcha.

Care to elaborate?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah but Kylo is clearly no Darth Vader and he was seriously wounded. Finn has also probably had a lot more training than Luke had by the end of ESB. Not in lightsabers, but in general combat.

I'm not sure about that- remember Luke was a rebel for a few years so he had combat training in there.

And naw, even before then Rey did better than Finn. She was giving a lot of ground but that proved better than Finn's "get completely owned" style imo.

I agree though that they're probably going for more OT style fights where force users aren't all that great. Its a good move for the movies but Ren's not too impressive for these versus discussions atm.

I think they may go more over-the-top, but only when we're talking fully trained people.

A wounded Knight of Ren is no Jedi/Sith!

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Neph,

So what you're saying is... Instability is a plus as long as it's not in a PT character. Gotcha.

Care to elaborate?

No, what I'm saying is that as an actual villain in TCW, that is after he gets cured by Talzin, he isn't unstable at all. There's nothing unpredictable about him, quite the opposite. Everything he says and does is extremely predictable and generic as all shit. He's unstable because he's full of rage and hate and has a personal vendetta against someone. Oh snap! Never seen that before! Thats no more unstable than any bad guy ever. Kylo Ren actually felt like he could lose his shit at any point.

There's nothing polished and bland about her. I have no idea what you're talking about. She gets her hand cut off in the first level. She's rude, snide, sarcastic. She's incredibly bitter. She can even be affectionate at times. Her voice actress gives her a wealth of expression.

Dooku basically has one mode in both movies up until Anakin pwns him.

Kreia being maimed in the most controlled way possible and making snide remarks doesn't change that she's basically the Exile's surrogate mother.

And Kylo is... Original? lol

Ahhh. I didn't realize blandness was mitigated by snideness, sarcasm, and rudeness... You may want to revisit Dooku's duel with the Jedi in AOTC and unmute it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kreia being maimed in the most controlled way possible and making snide remarks doesn't change that she's basically the Exile's surrogate mother.

Kreia is a pretty weak character all around, no doubt, but I'm just simply questioning some of the logic Neph offers. My theory is that you could have a character Neph claims to despise, put his name thru one of those online scramblers and give him an anagram, and drop him in a non-PT timeline (earlier the better) and Neph would treat you to six paragraphs about how deep and compelling he is.

Love ya, Neph, but we all know it's true.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Kylo is... Original? lol

Very much so. His backstory and design may be familiar but we've seen nothing similar to his characterization. A dark sider who is being "seduced" by the light and who actually wants to remain evil? I've seen very few villains like this, certainly not in SW.

Originally posted by ares834
Very much so. His backstory and design may be familiar but we've seen nothing similar to his characterization. A dark sider who is being "seduced" by the light and who actually wants to remain evil? I've seen very few villains like this, certainly not in SW.

lntriguing.

Isn't that Vader, though? Vader resists his connection to Luke until he absolutely can't bear it any longer.

I'd argue it's significantly different. RotJ Vader doesn't seem to want to remain a dark sider but he can't give it up. "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I must obey my master."

Kylo, on the other hand, is actually tempted by the light but want to remain a dark sider for whatever reason.

In the end, the two almost have opposite arcs (even though both are DSers) with Vader rejecting the dark and Kylo rejecting the light.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah but Kylo is clearly no Darth Vader and he was seriously wounded. Finn has also probably had a lot more training than Luke had by the end of ESB. Not in lightsabers, but in general combat.

And naw, even before then Rey did better than Finn. She was giving a lot of ground but that proved better than Finn's "get completely owned" style imo.

I agree though that they're probably going for more OT style fights where force users aren't all that great. Its a good move for the movies but Ren's not too impressive for these versus discussions atm.

I think you might be overstating any difference that might be there. The source material specifically says that Kylo wants to emulate Vader in every way EXCEPT from returning to the light, implying he identifies his struggle as being the same or similar to Vader's. We don't know that he truly wants to remain dark any more or less than Vader himself like any other addict. Vader didn't seek out Luke's redemption or anything: he even threatened to turn Leia.

Also, you can't speak to their arcs: Kylo's has just begun. He may end up redeemed at the end of the trilogy just like Vader.

BTW, I was flipping through the Art of TFA and Snoke's rough drafts were of a hooded and cloaked humanoid perched on a throne. Lmao.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Kreia being maimed in the most controlled way possible and making snide remarks doesn't change that she's basically the Exile's surrogate mother.

Is that supposed to be a criticism or.... or what?

Kreia being maimed is evidence that she's not some polished, bland *******. She's vulnerable. The first time we see her she's practically dead. The audience see's that she can falter and isn't some unflappable mary sue. And her dismissive attitude suggests her prejudiced, bitter nature. The game shows us that Kreia is a deeply flawed woman in a subtle, believable way.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And Kylo is... Original? lol

Ahhh. I didn't realize blandness was mitigated by snideness, sarcasm, and rudeness... You may want to revisit Dooku's duel with the Jedi in AOTC and unmute it.

In that he's the first villain in SW since Vader with relate-able emotions, sure. I can't connect with Maul because he's literally just pure evil and that does nothing to me.

Dooku taunting Obi-Wan is just another part of his very stock character of the unruffled gentleman duelist. A general smug sense of superiority is the mode I was talking about. I just find it frankly boring. He doesn't show me anything to suggest that he's an actual character with actual thoughts and feelings. Kriea has a lot of actual charactisation that gives her a lot of personality.

It's called good writing.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Kreia is a pretty weak character all around

Holy shit, lol.

Kreia's the best written character in SW.

I'm sorry Neph, did you actually not watch TCW, or is Temp right? Think it's the latter. Lol@that being why Dooku is polished but Kreia isn't.

@ares: "It's too late for me, Son."-them tears.

Kylo's unique in that his problem isn't that he's "teh Chosen One's heir." It's that he wants to be, and sees how close Vader came to ruling the galaxy, but let his family get in the way. The obvious solution is to kill your family. That's pretty obvious in his Vader obsession. For all intents and purposes, Vader was a failure to Kylo, but even then, he doesn't match up, and all he does is struggle with both worlds. It's compelling if you ignore what's said in the movie and think about the concepts, which is pretty much how Star Wars in general is.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I think you might be overstating any difference that might be there. The source material specifically says that Kylo wants to emulate Vader in every way EXCEPT from returning to the light, implying he identifies his struggle as being the same or similar to Vader's. We don't know that he truly wants to remain dark any more or less than Vader himself like any other addict. Vader didn't seek out Luke's redemption or anything: he even threatened to turn Leia.

Also, you can't speak to their arcs: Kylo's has just begun. He may end up redeemed at the end of the trilogy just like Vader.

BTW, I was flipping through the Art of TFA and Snoke's rough drafts were of a hooded and cloaked humanoid perched on a throne. Lmao.

Kylo seems to want to emulate Vader because of his strength and the fact that Vader is his grandfather.

Like I mentioned in my edit, their arcs are pretty much opposites. Vader's story is about his struggle with the darkness while Kylo's is with the light. It's why I really hope Kylo isn't redeemed.

As for Snoke, yes he seems to be Palpatine 2.0. Not a fan of what they are doing with him.

lol @ Neph

Omg she speaks in hushed tones when she's rude to ppl which conveys depth and nuance and dimension but Dooku has a booming voice and beardsword so when he does it he's just lame cardboard

PLUS SHE WAS MAIMED! DEPTH! she was maimed in a more maimy way than was Dooku

You're silly. I missed you.

Originally posted by ares834
Kylo seems to want to emulate Vader because of his strength and the fact that Vader is his grandfather.

Like I mentioned in my edit, there arcs are pretty much opposites. Vader's story is about his struggle with the darkness while Kylo's is with the light. It's why I really hope Kylo isn't redeemed.

As for Snoke, yes he seems to be Palpatine 2.0. Not a fan of what they are doing with him.

The point being that the character is DESIGNED to imitate his grandfather rather than strike out his own path. It seems to me that they share a similar struggle.

Anakin's story is a struggle with darkness, yes, but Vader's is very much a struggle with light.