Faora vs. MCU Hulk

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Did you watch the movie, his father told him to keep pushing his limits because that would be the only way to figure out how far he could take his abilities.

YouTube video

Obviously when he flew into space he got a long stronger as well. Solar radiation is space is 1000X stronger then on earth.

Pushing your limits is different from exponentially getting stronger. Pushing your limits simply means maximizing the stats that you already have. Pretty sure Superman had always had the ability to fly, he just needed to try and make it happen. That's quite different from claiming that he suddenly multiplied his durability with a simple decision.

Prepare to hear a reason why the bias in Rob will tell you why it's different.

Originally posted by Robtard
I've no problem comparing similarities, but ignoring higher feats of one because the other hasn't experienced the same is flawed. eg if Hulk had tanked a nuke, would you be okay to not allow that because someone else hasn't? You wouldn't.

-Krpts weren't damaged by the bullets, if they were physically moved, it's likely cos they don't have Hulk's mass and don't weight 1,000+ pounds

-Punches, Krpts took punches from super-powered beings too, each other

-The oil rig nonsense has to stop. That was before Clark had focused his powers and became more powerful as per his dad's instructions

See above, it's not absence of proof. Clark's body survived and overpowered the pull of a black hole, we don't just ignore that because Hulk's never faced a black hole. Clark has survived greater; that tells me his durability is higher.

1. You could say it was because of Hulk's mass that he wasn't moved, but they were just moved... they were VISIBLY shaken by taking the fire. Superman head flung backwards and he was momentarily stunned. Not long at all, but he clearly felt it. Nam (Likely the strongest of the 3 bad guys, and biggest) was PHYSICALLY hurt by the fire. I literally sent him flying and on one knew for 10 seconds. So it wasn't just about mass moving people, we seem them visibly more affected by them. i.e. Advantage Hulk

2. Incorrect again. They didn't just take them, in some instances they were KO'd by them. Zod and Superman have both been put down via punches. Superman has been KO'd. He's been KO'd by getting slammed to the ground. Zod neck being snapped. Again, Hulk has the decisive edge here. He's also take shots from super powered beings and not been KO'd. Again, advantage Hulk

3. I simply can't agree with this line of thinking at all. First, you want to claim PIS for Lois and yet count its full effects for Superman. That is being disingenuous. You simply can't have it both ways. That is a non feat as far as I'm concerned. You can't claim PIS because it wasn't just Lois not affected. We see people who weren't important to the plot running around the pulses. It simply wasn't impressive because of that. I could easily say it was PIS superman was taking it just as it was Lois.

The Oil Rig feat stands as claimed. His durability didn't increase since that scene till Zod showed up. That was likely less than a month apart. He didn't somehow gain all this durability he never had. Again, that is being disingenuous to claim such a thing. Jor-El Specifically said he was so durable and strong because of his long exposure to the sun. Period, end of story. He'd been soaking up the sun since he was a child. His durability was tried and tested and had been so for sometime. He gained no extra durability in less than a month. That is simply nonsensical to claim that. When talking to his father he even notes "You know they can't hurt me" i.e. he's damn durable even as a young boy.

Next, you keep on citing his talk with Jor-El, as if he now needed to test his strength. That is again totally and completely false. Not only was strength never mentioned as something he needed to test himself at, but we never see him test himself in strength. What we do see, is him trying stuff he never tried before. THAT we do see, and exactly what Jor-El was referring to. He wasn't referring to strength. Superman had been testing his strength since he was a little boy. The bus scene for example he tested himself, and again, it was noted "This wasn't the first time he's done a feat like this" i.e. he tested himself other times. Even the Oil Rig feat itself was yet another test. He had no idea if he could hold that up, and yet he tried, failed but tried. Again he was testing himself. Jor-El wasn't talking about strength at all, and that is simply the cold hard truth

I agree he did get more powerful, but that's is because he became more formidable. He was then shown flying and using things like HV to better effect. Yes, he became more powerful, but in no way did he become stronger or more durable. Which again, is all that matters in the Oil Rig feat. Therefore, it unquestionably stands.

Again, if Hulk wasn't there to do the feat, then he simply wasn't there. That doesn't mean he couldn't do it, absence of proof isn't proof. In fact, it would be much more logical to say he would be able to do them, considering he's outshined supes in comparable durability showings. For example if I've been shown to take punches, hits from objects, slams better than my friend. We've both been hit by these comparable things by comparable people.. and I wasn't KO'd and he was. Would we then go, because my friend wasn't KO'd by a kick, oh he could take that but I bet you couldn't??? Of course not, we'd assume I could take it better because I've taken comparable other type of hits better. That is the logical line of progression there. So when Hulk is tanking comparable things better... We don't just assume he'd not be able to take what Superman has, just because he hasn't had a chance. That is the least logical approach, not the most.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
I'd agree with you on that, actually. Faora's movement seemed faster than the ejector to me as well. Tho, I wouldn't say by a lot. My point is that Hulk has showings of hand/foot speed throughout his career. Faora is fast and Hulk's not tagging her for a while. And I will still state that I think she wins by wearing Hulk down more often than not (6/10). But it won't be easy.

That's cuz her durability is questionable (max of her durability seems to be gettting hit by a Maverick air-to-ground missile, not bad but not beyond-Hulk good either) and she doesn't have many great strength "feats" that I can think of. If Hulk grabs her, she gets puny godded. And she's cocky as f-ck, as well. Prone to staredowns and monologing. The same monologing and staredown that didn't work too well with Loki and it is behavior Hulk has shown to exploit in the past. This is Mountan vs. Oberin all over again. One has all the tools to win and should win but one mistake and it's over.

As for your question towards Froth, I'm thinking that one would give you the time to go limp or roll with the impact while the other would just hit you square on.

Sorry bud, Hulk has reacted just fine to speed. The ejector seat, catching missiles etc etc. As I mentioned abom had his back turned after a rocket was fired, and he caught it. Hulk proceeded to kick the shit out of him. Abom's perception wasn't better nor was his reactions. We saw Hulk dealing with them just fine and hitting him. He was simply better. Faora wasn't moving as fast as that rocket, nor gun fire... Hulk can react to her just fine at some point. She may make him look bad for a little bit, but eventually he'll catch her, and when he does, she gets destroyed. She doesn't even win one fight let alone 6. Your logic is flawed if you think she even wins 6.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
That is a two way street, tho. If you are willing to accept that Superman increased his durability, even tho it was never really explicitly mentioned. That he got tougher because one scene hints at some sort of improvement to his abilities and future "feats" corroborate this increase in ability (time plus sun exposure plus future "feats" = tougher Superman) you also need to accept that Hulk got more powerful because of the same parameters (time plus meditation/learning his power/always angry mindset plus future "feats" equals more powerful Hulk). Essentially, if you accept this explanation, you better accept that Avenger Hulk >>>> prior Hulks. I'm more than happy to say the oil rig scene was a weaker Superman (from my end anyway) if you do so.

I've said that Hulk in Avengers is superior to his previous TIH showing before. We even have visual and verbal confirmation that Banner and the Hulk persona are more in line with each other in Avengers.

Avenger's Hulk would clean the floor with Blonski without having to rage-amp.

Nib broke Robbie. Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Robtard
If you were to approach a black hole head first, the gravity pull at the top of your head would be slightly greater than the pull at your feet, but factoring in the extreme levels of gravity/pull in play, it would "spaghetti" you. ie pull you apart due to the varying degrees of gravity pulling at your body.

edit: here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghettification

We visibly see Clark's body being affected by the pull.

Ah, that's what you meant. Sorry, I couldn't understand your last post. 😛

Yes, we see the effect. But from what I can see, that't not really him being pulled apart, we see his skin ripple, but what does that mean? How does it quantify the forces he was experiencing?

It wasn't even a standard black hole, otherwise it would have kept building it's mass til our Solar System was consumed. I am willing to overlook inconsistencies with the portrayal in favor of "suspension of disbelief" and all, but from my end there really isn't a clear way to prove how powerful the forces he was experiencing were other than the fact that the forces seemed to have been making him struggle flight wise.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
His body was being pulled apart and he resisted it, how is that not a durability feat, he resisted disintegration...people here use Loki falling from Asgard into the vacuum of space and consider that a durability feat, so that counts and Clarks does not? Can you clarify that one?

This is simply false. He wasn't been disintegrated at all. We saw multiple people pulled into it and not disintegrated. I see, this is where the misconception about the feat comes from. In no way was he being pulled apart. He literally see people pulled in and flying in just fine. In fact, when Jor_el was giving instructions on how to pull it off... he said they'll be sucked and trapped in the phantom zone... not that they would be killed by the gravitational forces. The simple fact is, Lois and other people not important to the plot were scene running around the pulse. It wasn't impressive. If Lois and others survived it, it's no big deal supes did.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
1. You could say it was because of Hulk's mass that he wasn't moved, but they were just moved... they were VISIBLY shaken by taking the fire. Superman head flung backwards and he was momentarily stunned. Not long at all, but he clearly felt it. Nam (Likely the strongest of the 3 bad guys, and biggest) was PHYSICALLY hurt by the fire. I literally sent him flying and on one knew for 10 seconds. So it wasn't just about mass moving people, we seem them visibly more affected by them. i.e. Advantage Hulk

2. Incorrect again. They didn't just take them, in some instances they were KO'd by them. Zod and Superman have both been put down via punches. Superman has been KO'd. He's been KO'd by getting slammed to the ground. Zod neck being snapped. Again, Hulk has the decisive edge here. He's also take shots from super powered beings and not been KO'd. Again, advantage Hulk

3. I simply can't agree with this line of thinking at all. First, you want to claim PIS for Lois and yet count its full effects for Superman. That is being disingenuous. You simply can't have it both ways. That is a non feat as far as I'm concerned. You can't claim PIS because it wasn't just Lois not affected. We see people who weren't important to the plot running around the pulses. It simply wasn't impressive because of that. I could easily say it was PIS superman was taking it just as it was Lois.

The Oil Rig feat stands as claimed. His durability didn't increase since that scene till Zod showed up. That was likely less than a month apart. He didn't somehow gain all this durability he never had. Again, that is being disingenuous to claim such a thing. Jor-El Specifically said he was so durable and strong because of his long exposure to the sun. Period, end of story. He'd been soaking up the sun since he was a child. His durability was tried and tested and had been so for sometime. He gained no extra durability in less than a month. That is simply nonsensical to claim that. When talking to his father he even notes "You know they can't hurt me" i.e. he's damn durable even as a young boy.

Next, you keep on citing his talk with Jor-El, as if he now needed to test his strength. That is again totally and completely false. Not only was strength never mentioned as something he needed to test himself at, but we never see him test himself in strength. What we do see, is him trying stuff he never tried before. THAT we do see, and exactly what Jor-El was referring to. He wasn't referring to strength. Superman had been testing his strength since he was a little boy. The bus scene for example he tested himself, and again, it was noted "This wasn't the first time he's done a feat like this" i.e. he tested himself other times. Even the Oil Rig feat itself was yet another test. He had no idea if he could hold that up, and yet he tried, failed but tried. Again he was testing himself. Jor-El wasn't talking about strength at all, and that is simply the cold hard truth

I agree he did get more powerful, but that's is because he became more formidable. He was then shown flying and using things like HV to better effect. Yes, he became more powerful, but in no way did he become stronger or more durable. Which again, is all that matters in the Oil Rig feat. Therefore, it unquestionably stands.

Again, if Hulk wasn't there to do the feat, then he simply wasn't there. That doesn't mean he couldn't do it, absence of proof isn't proof. In fact, it would be much more logical to say he would be able to do them, considering he's outshined supes in comparable durability showings. For example if I've been shown to take punches, hits from objects, slams better than my friend. We've both been hit by these comparable things by comparable people.. and I wasn't KO'd and he was. Would we then go, because my friend wasn't KO'd by a kick, oh he could take that but I bet you couldn't??? Of course not, we'd assume I could take it better because I've taken comparable other type of hits better. That is the logical line of progression there. So when Hulk is tanking comparable things better... We don't just assume he'd not be able to take what Superman has, just because he hasn't had a chance. That is the least logical approach, not the most.

Getting tossed isn't getting hurt. We saw no injurious from bullets.

Hulk was Ko'd by Tony

You honestly feel that Lois falling while cars were being sucked up makes sense? That the pull affected Clark, but not here because why? Come on

You're just being silly, he clearly increased in power all around. Should we count Hulk being floored and out for a few seconds by Abomination's chain-swing as being Hulk's standard durability? I wouldn't as he's clearly improved, but using your reasoning we should

Sorry, but you're reasoning is flawed. Kurse who is comparable to Hulk/Thor didn't survive an extremely tiny singularity, but he'll just survive the massive one in MoS? Come on, you're better than this.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sorry bud, Hulk has reacted just fine to speed. The ejector seat, catching missiles etc etc. As I mentioned abom had his back turned after a rocket was fired, and he caught it. Hulk proceeded to kick the shit out of him. Abom's perception wasn't better nor was his reactions. We saw Hulk dealing with them just fine and hitting him. He was simply better. Faora wasn't moving as fast as that rocket, nor gun fire... Hulk can react to her just fine at some point. She may make him look bad for a little bit, but eventually he'll catch her, and when he does, she gets destroyed. She doesn't even win one fight let alone 6. Your logic is flawed if you think she even wins 6.

Well, I disagree. But I can see where you're coming from. It comes down to how fast we see Faora was going and how strongly (or not) this will affect the outcome of the fight. I will admit that, at this point, it will be mostly personal interpretations as Faora's speed is pretty hard to quantify (although I also doubt that it would outspeed rockets).

What is unquestionable is that Hulk has dealt with fast objects in the past. And like you said, Hulk will eventually tag her. It is inevitable, that is, assuming he get infinite time. I think our point of contention is the when this inevitable thing happens and if Hulk would still be standing by the time this set period elapses.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Ah, that's what you meant. Sorry, I couldn't understand your last post. 😛

Yes, we see the effect. But from what I can see, that't not really him being pulled apart, we see his skin ripple, but what does that mean? How does it quantify the forces he was experiencing?

It wasn't even a standard black hole, otherwise it would have kept building it's mass til our Solar System was consumed. I am willing to overlook inconsistencies with the portrayal in favor of "suspension of disbelief" and all, but from my end there really isn't a clear way to prove how powerful the forces he was experiencing were other than the fact that the forces seemed to have been making him struggle flight wise.

We see the gravitational affects. It's a black hole.

It had a time limit. In theory if it didn't disappear, it would have kept sucking.

Originally posted by Robtard
You honestly feel that Lois falling while cars were being sucked up makes sense? That the pull affected Clark, but not here because why? Come on.

Again, it made sense in mu head because I at least considered that she was already being accelerated by being blown clear by the explosion as well as falling by the time the gravitational forces started affecting her. Not the best justification, I admit, but here it is.

Also, one scene being PiS doesn make another scene PIS. Thought we took each instance of PIS individually and not affecting all the other things related to it?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Again, it made sense in mu head because I at least considered that she was already being accelerated by being blown clear by the explosion as well as falling by the time the gravitational forces started affecting her. Not the best justification, I admit, but here it is.

Also, one scene being PiS doesn make another scene PIS. Thought we took each instance of PIS individually and not affecting all the other things related to it?

It's obvious PIS, she's literally free falling while massive amounts of debris are being pulled in, look:

YouTube video

You don't discredit the power of the singularity, because of one outlier used to further the plot; not if we're debating honestly.

edit: at 0:36 you can see the gravity pulling at his body and he's struggling, but makes it

Originally posted by Robtard
It's obvious PIS, she's literally free falling while massive amounts of debris are being pulled in, look:

YouTube video

You don't discredit the power of the singularity, because of one outlier used to further the plot; not if we're debating honestly.

edit: at 0:36 you can see the gravity pulling at his body and he's struggling, but makes it

Gravity doesn't work like an air vortex that sucks you in vacuum style. At least not the way I was taught back in physics class (although that was a long time ago). It pulls on you relative to your mass and against your current acceleration. Given enough acceleration, we can resist gravity momentarily (we do that everytime we jump). Had she been already accelerated (by both her fall and the explosion) it would be reasonable to think that she would be temporarily moving away from the gravitational pull before it took full effect albeit temporarily as it does seem the gravitational field expanded quickly but not instantaneously.

Or you could be right, and it could be all PIS to further the plot. /shrug to be honest, I would actually be inclined to agree with you.

I'm just saying that this is not a case of "no other possible explanation other than PIS". As there are explanations out there, not very good ones, but it's there.

Yes, never said it wasn't pulling at his body. What I said was that forces he was experiencing seemed to be strong enough to make him struggle flight-wise.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial

Obviously when he flew into space he got a long stronger as well. Solar radiation is space is 1000X stronger then on earth.

Originally posted by Robtard
Very good point here 👆

Thank you

Originally posted by FrothByte
Pushing your limits is different from exponentially getting stronger. Pushing your limits simply means maximizing the stats that you already have. Pretty sure Superman had always had the ability to fly, he just needed to try and make it happen. That's quite different from claiming that he suddenly multiplied his durability with a simple decision.

You can't have it both ways..either he pushed himself and got stronger or

He got stronger from solar radiation, its clear his abilities went to another level after going into space.

Originally posted by Robtard
We see the gravitational affects. It's a black hole.

It had a time limit. In theory if it didn't disappear, it would have kept sucking.

Yes yes. We see its gravitational effects but how do we quantify how strong it was? Are you saying that black hole = strongest eva! without first quantifying exactly how much force it was applying? Relative to Superman's distance (as the closer you are, the stronger the pull) at the time, what else did the black hole accomplish so we can use this as reference?

Never said it wasn't. Just that it wasn't a standard black hole. I mean standard black holes don't have time limits, do they?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Again, never said she was in full health. But she's taken a tackle from Kal El before and she seemed ok. And that time she also got shoved thru hard objects as well. And I understand that Kal El sucker punched (or, to be more accurate, sucker tackled her) right as she was about to stab Mr. balding soldier.

Thing is, it wasn't the sucker tackle that KO'd her, she was still well enough to stand and talk right after. It was the missile impact.

Hulk was way weaker in the Ang Lee verion, tho. There was a clear power creep from first Hulk going to Avengers.

If we don't use the Maverick missile showing, how exactly are we supposed to quantify the limits of her durability? I don't remember a lot of "feats" for Faora durability wise (heck I don't even remember her taking a direct hit from Kal outside of getting tackled and slammed cuz Nam Ek kept interfering everytime she got put in a bad position), can you post some?

Right after she got up from the tackle her mask was broken, and then she get hits with a missile to the face, its crystal clear what happened.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Yes yes. We see its gravitational effects but how do we quantify how strong it was? Are you saying that black hole = strongest eva! without first quantifying exactly how much force it was applying? Relative to Superman's distance (as the closer you are, the stronger the pull) at the time, what else did the black hole accomplish so we can use this as reference?

Never said it wasn't. Just that it wasn't a standard black hole. I mean standard black holes don't have time limits, do they?

So Loki surviving being sucked into space counts as durability feat but Clarks resisting a black hole does not..hmm

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
So Loki surviving being sucked into space counts as durability feat but Clarks resisting a black hole does not..hmm

Wait. I just said I don't know anything about the Loki space suck "feat" and agree with it not being a durability "feat" if it is the way you are portraying it....