Ozymandias vs. Winter Soldier (h2h)

Originally posted by FrothByte
Improving implies that one was able to do something that he wasn't able to do before. Which is why we can see him improving fightskill-wise because we have a comparison to go by.

But being able to throw a motorcycle at a jeep can't be seen as an improvement in strength simply because we have nothing to compare it to that he struggled with previously.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point. But as these matches are concerned, it's shown feats. Sometimes implied feats work if they're logically supported.

If you want to believe Cap didn't increase in strength, I have n real problem with it and it really doesn't matter, as we generally argue off latest showings, which means Cap has everything from AOU on down; soon CW, which as I noted, I believe he'll improve even more.

Originally posted by Robtard
Don't get me wrong, I see your point. But as these matches are concerned, it's shown feats. Sometimes implied feats work if they're logically supported.

If you want to believe Cap didn't increase in strength, I have n real problem with it and it really doesn't matter, as we generally argue off latest showings, which means Cap has everything from AOU on down; soon CW, which as I noted, I believe he'll improve even more.

Fair enough. Cap's improvement (or non-improvement) doesn't really factor in this fight anyway. Don't know why I got suckered into debating about it.

Originally posted by FrothByte
LOL. Do you know what martial arts mean? Not your typical mcdojo definition but what it truly means?

Martial arts mean Arts of Mars. Mars being the god of war. So martial arts basically means Arts of War. Or Arts of Fighting. Military men WERE the original martial artists. Heck they were THE definition of martial artists.

Cap's ability to take out his opponents with utmost efficiency through h2h and melee techniques is what makes him an expert martial artist. Unless you think you need multiple blackbelts in different disciplines to be called an expert martial artist.

I also love how you keep dodging the fact that you claimed Cap doesn't do fancy kicks...

Heck, you called Cap a brick. A BRICK. Seriously?

you still have failed to address the questions I posed, and for good reason. I already know why. Umm okay, he has a few "fancy" moves here and there... nothing of substance that I'd go... Holy shit, that guy must be an expert an many forms. Nothing like that. Not even a feeling like that when I watch him fight.

Now to your questions

1. You've made the claim that technique and leverage can improve how much you lift. You conceded this point already previously correct?

2. You also made the claim that Cap hasn't improved his strength, speed, agility etc etc because he was never shown improving and working on techniques for listing or running faster etc etc. The above were both your claims.

3. You've further made the claim that Cap has improved his h2h skill through training. You've made the claim that this is true and we can see it.

okay then, explain the following:

Show me Cap studying a variety of MA's as you claim he has improved his skill. So I'd like to see training in a variety of MA's, but not just training, becoming an expert at them. Please post the video where it shows him doing this for a variety of MA's

A. If you can't, then explain to me how you think Cap has improved his skill if he wasn't shown becoming an expert at a variety of MA's. Under your above criteria, we can't make that claim, since it wasn't shown.

B. If you believe it doesn't have to be shown but we can tell by feats, well, then you're contradicting yourself again. Because Cap has shown improvement in strength, and thus I could simply go look at the feats, as you're trying to do with skill. There is a clear improvement. On one hand you want to give Cap on the benefit of the doubt and say he's a trained expert in a variety of MA's, even though it was never shown. On the contrary, you then turn around and go.. well he's become an expert at various MA's through training and study, yet I don't believe he studied anything about technique or leverage to improve his strength.

So on one hand he takes the time to become better and it shows. Another shows just the same, but nah nope, it has to be show him training technique and leverage. it's just ludicrous. Even you believe Cap is constantly trying to improve himself and has, or you believe he's static. You can't have it both ways. We can get to the Batroc scene next, and that totally disproves your theory.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Fair enough. Cap's improvement (or non-improvement) doesn't really factor in this fight anyway. Don't know why I got suckered into debating about it.

You got suckered into it because of your blatant hypocrisy on the matter and refusal to you logic as your friend. As my post illustrates. You can't make up your mind what you believe. However, it's blatantly illogical to assume he can't or hasn't improved himself in a variety of ways and thus can pull of greater feats from TFA to AOU. It's bordering on idiotic actually to think he can't and hasn't. You seem to think he has.

Didn't the guy with wings tell Cap he had a future in MMA?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Improving implies that one was able to do something that he wasn't able to do before. Which is why we can see him improving fightskill-wise because we have a comparison to go by.

But being able to throw a motorcycle at a jeep can't be seen as an improvement in strength simply because we have nothing to compare it to that he struggled with previously.

Exactly; as he was able to casually hold a motorcycle w/3 people on it over his head, there is no reason to believe he couldn't have also thrown a motorcycle .

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
you still have failed to address the questions I posed, and for good reason. I already know why. Umm okay, he has a few "fancy" moves here and there... nothing of substance that I'd go... Holy shit, that guy must be an expert an many forms. Nothing like that. Not even a feeling like that when I watch him fight.

Now to your questions

1. You've made the claim that technique and leverage can improve how much you lift. You conceded this point already previously correct?

2. You also made the claim that Cap hasn't improved his strength, speed, agility etc etc because he was never shown improving and working on techniques for listing or running faster etc etc. The above were both your claims.

3. You've further made the claim that Cap has improved his h2h skill through training. You've made the claim that this is true and we can see it.

okay then, explain the following:

Show me Cap studying a variety of MA's as you claim he has improved his skill. So I'd like to see training in a variety of MA's, but not just training, becoming an expert at them. Please post the video where it shows him doing this for a variety of MA's

A. If you can't, then explain to me how you think Cap has improved his skill if he wasn't shown becoming an expert at a variety of MA's. Under your above criteria, we can't make that claim, since it wasn't shown.

B. If you believe it doesn't have to be shown but we can tell by feats, well, then you're contradicting yourself again. Because Cap has shown improvement in strength, and thus I could simply go look at the feats, as you're trying to do with skill. There is a clear improvement. On one hand you want to give Cap on the benefit of the doubt and say he's a trained expert in a variety of MA's, even though it was never shown. On the contrary, you then turn around and go.. well he's become an expert at various MA's through training and study, yet I don't believe he studied anything about technique or leverage to improve his strength.

So on one hand he takes the time to become better and it shows. Another shows just the same, but nah nope, it has to be show him training technique and leverage. it's just ludicrous. Even you believe Cap is constantly trying to improve himself and has, or you believe he's static. You can't have it both ways. We can get to the Batroc scene next, and that totally disproves your theory.

Hold on there KT. What exactly has all this got to do with this debate?
I'll tell you again for the nth time, and please get it through your head this time, I believe Cap improves in fighting skill but not strength and speed. You disagree with this, fine, but please drop it for now because it literally has nothing to do with this thread.

I go by feats shown in movies. Not back stories of what they did in comics, not theories on how they trained to get where they are, I just base it on what I see.

And from what we can see from the way Cap fights, he's a very very good h2h and melee combatant. Watch his fight with Batroc. Watch his fight against WS. In the fighting context of martial arts, efficiency and end results is what counts. Not how many techniques you've mastered. Not how many katas you know. Not how many black belts you hold. You can tell by the way Cap dispatches his opponents, by the grace, complexity and efficiency of his moves that he is an expert martial artist. An expert fighter.

Now if you believe that Ozy is a better fighter, that's fine. It's debatable but it could be true. However, if what you're claiming is that Cap is a brick who's a brawler and knows only a few MA moves and not an expert... and in the same breath praise how much an expert Ozy is... then you have some ridiculous bias going on there.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Hold on there KT. What exactly has all this got to do with this debate?
I'll tell you again for the nth time, and please get it through your head this time, I believe Cap improves in fighting skill but not strength and speed. You disagree with this, fine, but please drop it for now because it literally has nothing to do with this thread.

I go by feats shown in movies. Not back stories of what they did in comics, not theories on how they trained to get where they are, I just base it on what I see.

And from what we can see from the way Cap fights, he's a very very good h2h and melee combatant. Watch his fight with Batroc. Watch his fight against WS. In the fighting context of martial arts, efficiency and end results is what counts. Not how many techniques you've mastered. Not how many katas you know. Not how many black belts you hold. You can tell by the way Cap dispatches his opponents, by the grace, complexity and efficiency of his moves that he is an expert martial artist. An expert fighter.

Now if you believe that Ozy is a better fighter, that's fine. It's debatable but it could be true. However, if what you're claiming is that Cap is a brick who's a brawler and knows only a few MA moves and not an expert... and in the same breath praise how much an expert Ozy is... then you have some ridiculous bias going on there.

It has everything to do with the nature of the character in question and your hypocrisy.

You claimed improving your technique and leverage as well as experience can increase what you can lift. You claimed to lift weights yourself and thus you accept this as true.

yet turn around and give Cap credit for mastering a variety of Combat and improving WITHOUT it being shown. We don't see Cap training in a dojo or a room and mastering variety of MA's we don't. However, common sense tells us, he must be training and improving, after all it's Cap, that is what he does. Why the F would he remain static. Yet, not such mastering was ever shown.

Then turn around and go, well I believe he tried to improve himself via h2h skill, even though it was never shown, but I refuse believe he studied anything about technique, leverage or form to increase his strength. That makes to you? It's hypocrisy 101.

It's like Usain Bolt, he's born with the genetics to be capable of being THIS fast, yet he would never become that fast if he didn't train technique and form. Somebody could be blessed with peak running ability muscles and need not a second of training to achieve that in their muscles. Yet, if they ran a 40 yard dash the day the got the boost.. then ran one 2 years later after training and experience, without question he'd be faster. Be would be amazed how much technique and timing is involved in sprinting. To even think Cap could improve his speed is ridiculous.

Same with my table analogy. Cap could try and lift this awkward table the first time, and do it, but struggle, but the next time he tries.... he lift it much easier because he LEARNED how to. He didn't get any stronger but experience taught him how to lift it.

As far as the rest of what you say, I don't disagree with. That is why Cap is formidable. He's fast, strong and skilled. You're 100% right, the proof is in the pudding, he's a badass h2h fighter when it's all said and done. I'm only concerned with your hypocrisy on the matter.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It has everything to do with the nature of the character in question and your hypocrisy.

You claimed improving your technique and leverage as well as experience can increase what you can lift. You claimed to lift weights yourself and thus you accept this as true.

yet turn around and give Cap credit for mastering a variety of Combat and improving WITHOUT it being shown. We don't see Cap training in a dojo or a room and mastering variety of MA's we don't. However, common sense tells us, he must be training and improving, after all it's Cap, that is what he does. Why the F would he remain static. Yet, not such mastering was ever shown.

Then turn around and go, well I believe he tried to improve himself via h2h skill, even though it was never shown, but I refuse believe he studied anything about technique, leverage or form to increase his strength. That makes to you? It's hypocrisy 101.

It's like Usain Bolt, he's born with the genetics to be capable of being THIS fast, yet he would never become that fast if he didn't train technique and form. Somebody could be blessed with peak running ability muscles and need not a second of training to achieve that in their muscles. Yet, if they ran a 40 yard dash the day the got the boost.. then ran one 2 years later after training and experience, without question he'd be faster. Be would be amazed how much technique and timing is involved in sprinting. To even think Cap could improve his speed is ridiculous.

Same with my table analogy. Cap could try and lift this awkward table the first time, and do it, but struggle, but the next time he tries.... he lift it much easier because he LEARNED how to. He didn't get any stronger but experience taught him how to lift it.

As far as the rest of what you say, I don't disagree with. That is why Cap is formidable. He's fast, strong and skilled. You're 100% right, the proof is in the pudding, he's a badass h2h fighter when it's all said and done. I'm only concerned with your hypocrisy on the matter.

I'm sensing a fundamental flaw in your thinking here. From what I can tell, you believe martial art skill can only be achieved in practicing in a dojo. In mastering something taught by an instructor. In achieving a belt/rank. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how you sound like.

It never occurred to you that fighting skill might be vastly improved by, you know, actually fighting people? Gaining experience in live fighting? Has it never occurred to you that some people are instinctively good at specific forms of fighting?

Besides, we never see Ozy or Night owl or Roscharch train in a dojo either. By your reasoning they aren't martial arts experts either.

Let's address the Batroc situation and BW

You cited them as examples of Cap dominating a skilled legit street leveler foe. Cool. Let's examine how it stacks up with Ozy shall we.

You made the false claim that Cap wasn't trying initially against Batroc, that is blatantly false. It's illogical to assume he wasn't trying to put him down. He was. He just wasn't going all out, I'm going to kick the shit out of you mode. He was still trying none the less.

Yet, while trying, he was pushed back and had blows landed on him. Mind you, WITH his shield. So with his protective instrument, and trying against a legit street leveler (peak human skill likely) he was hit multiple times.

Now in stark contrast

2 legit peak humans (superhuman durability guys, clearly better than batroc in this regard) can't even land a single blow 2 v 1 against Ozy. Not only did Ozy have NO shield, he at times turned his back to them. He was even giving a monologue and seemingly barely even trying the entire time. Yet, with all of the above they couldn't land a single blow on him. Now you tell me, which is more impressive.

Cap (while trying) and his shield - is doing just fine against Batroc but still having some blows landed on him

or Ozy with no shield, barely trying, back turned sometimes and 2 v 1.. they still don't even land a single blow on him.

Which is more impressive?

Sorry, are you talking to me? I never claimed Cap wasn't trying initially against Batroc.

You know, there's a simpler explanation to your theory. Simply, Batroc is a better fighter than either Nightowl or Roscharch.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Exactly; as he was able to casually hold a motorcycle w/3 people on it over his head, there is no reason to believe he couldn't have also thrown a motorcycle .

I disagree and let me give you a real-life example as to why:

I can lift 190lbs over my head, though I've never tried, I do not believe I would be able to throw those 190lbs 40-50 feet, let alone with enough force to crush and stop a speeding car.

Even if we drop it to 100lbs, as to "casually lift", I don't think I could toss those same 100lbs over 40-50 feet.

Lifting and throwing with force are not necessarily interchangeable, is what I am saying.

So basically KT is arguing that because we don't see Cap training, the fights that clearly show he is a skilled fighter don't count.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm sensing a fundamental flaw in your thinking here. From what I can tell, you believe martial art skill can only be achieved in practicing in a dojo. In mastering something taught by an instructor. In achieving a belt/rank. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how you sound like.

It never occurred to you that fighting skill might be vastly improved by, you know, actually fighting people? Gaining experience in live fighting? Has it never occurred to you that some people are instinctively good at specific forms of fighting?

Besides, we never see Ozy or Night owl or Roscharch train in a dojo either. By your reasoning they aren't martial arts experts either.

You're contradicting yourself again. THAT IS MY EXACT POINT. No it doesn't have to be reading a book or learning from a master. EXPERIENCE sometimes can be the best trainer. Did you even read my table analogy? That is exactly my point. That is EXACTLY how he would also improve his strength and speed. The exact same way.. through training AND experience.. which is the point I've been making this whole time.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Sorry, are you talking to me? I never claimed Cap wasn't trying initially against Batroc.

You know, there's a simpler explanation to your theory. Simply, Batroc is a better fighter than either Nightowl or Roscharch.

Only, you have no way to prove that. We know about the characters in The Watchmen.. we know about them as they are from comics. Same with Batroc. What it tells us is, they have studied and learned more MA's than Batroc has. Plain and simple. That's what they do. This is not to say Batroc isn't skilled... he is, he's formidable. However, he's not a better MA's than Night owl or RO.

Even if we accept your theory that Batroc is more skilled (I disagree) we'd still be left with... Batroc in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM is so much more skilled that he's equivalent to two foes like Nite Owl and RO... is it your claim he's better than both combined??

So even if you believe he's superior, it would only be slightly, and certainly not worth 2 of them. Further, those two guys just as skilled or more so, couldn't even land a single blow on Ozy. Not one. Sometimes with his back turned. Without even trying and talking, they landed nothing. In stark contrast, Batroc was able to land on Cap who was trying and had his protective shield.

So which is a superior showing of h2h skill?

Originally posted by Robtard
I disagree and let me give you a real-life example as to why:

I can lift 190lbs over my head, though I've never tried, I do not believe I would be able to throw those 190lbs 40-50 feet, let alone with enough force to crush and stop a speeding car.

Even if we drop it to 100lbs, as to "casually lift", I don't think I could toss those same 100lbs over 40-50 feet.

Lifting and throwing with force are not necessarily interchangeable, is what I am saying.

To be fair, Cap didn't exactly just throw the motorcycle. While going at a good clip he braked, flipped with the motorcycle and used it's forward momentum to assist in throwing the motorcycle. So it was his strength + motorcycle momentum + motorcycle mass that damaged that jeep.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're contradicting yourself again. THAT IS MY EXACT POINT. No it doesn't have to be reading a book or learning from a master. EXPERIENCE sometimes can be the best trainer. Did you even read my table analogy? That is exactly my point. That is EXACTLY how he would also improve his strength and speed. The exact same way.. through training AND experience.. which is the point I've been making this whole time.

Will you please, pleeeeeaaaaase drop this whole "improving strength and speed" crap. It is not necessary to this debate. We'll talk about it more when we need to. Right now all you're doing is spamming this board.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only, you have no way to prove that. We know about the characters in The Watchmen.. we know about them as they are from comics. Same with Batroc. What it tells us is, they have studied and learned more MA's than Batroc has. Plain and simple. That's what they do. This is not to say Batroc isn't skilled... he is, he's formidable. However, he's not a better MA's than Night owl or RO.

Even if we accept your theory that Batroc is more skilled (I disagree) we'd still be left with... Batroc in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM is so much more skilled that he's equivalent to two foes like Nite Owl and RO... is it your claim he's better than both combined??

So even if you believe he's superior, it would only be slightly, and certainly not worth 2 of them. Further, those two guys just as skilled or more so, couldn't even land a single blow on Ozy. Not one. Sometimes with his back turned. Without even trying and talking, they landed nothing. In stark contrast, Batroc was able to land on Cap who was trying and had his protective shield.

So which is a superior showing of h2h skill?

So basically what you're saying is that you're basing their skill and stats on their comic counterparts, not the movies. Gotcha.

Originally posted by FrothByte
To be fair, Cap didn't exactly just throw the motorcycle. While going at a good clip he braked, flipped with the motorcycle and used it's forward momentum to assist in throwing the motorcycle. So it was his strength + motorcycle momentum + motorcycle mass that damaged that jeep.

I've broken down the scene before, when he hits the brakes, the cycle makes a complete stop (we can see it stop) and he uses the forward momentum transferred to his body (think about being in a car and slamming on the brakes) to flip over it and then uses nothing but pure muscle power to lift and flip the cycle over himself, sending it flying forward.

It really was a feat of agility and strength on his part, considering the cycle made a full stop before it was picked up and tossed.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I can't really take much of what you say seriously anymore if you believe EITHER Cap or Bucky is more skilled h2h than Ozy. Cap is a great many things, one thing he not, is an expert martial artist. Cap is a brick. He's a boxer/Military combat kind of guy. He's not doing elaborate moves or kicks or flips while kicking. He's not turning his back and effortlessly blocking strikes while not looking from expert martial artists. To even try and say Cap is some expert marital artist is laughable. He's not. Just look at his fights and you'd see that.

Do we ever see the watchmen training or get any indication that they are super martial artists? You are stating these guys are clearly expert martial artists.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Now in stark contrast, Ozy fought some of the best MA around. Legit peak human or superhuman (in some areas) guys, and they couldn't land a single blow on him. Nothing. These are guys who are certified experts at various MA. They couldn't even land a blow and he was effortlessly beating them while doing a monologue. That is leaps and bounds about anything Cap has shown MA wise. If you disagree, name me the best MA he fought, and show me the clip of him effortlessly beating them, without them landing a blow. Post the damn clip. I challenged all the clowns in this thread who said WS wins. I challenged each and every one of you to feat comparison. Not one, not one person could post feats of Bucky matching the feats I provided for Ozy. Not one. Here again, baseless fanboy claims than Cap and Bucky are more skilled. What a complete joke. Post the feats or GTFO of here with that BS

Legit Super human? I already stated that if we go by your classification of "super human" then 99% of action heroes will fall under being super human. Thats absurd to me and cant even begin to try to accept that notion.

Please post clips of proof where its stated the watchmen are "expert" martial artists.
Because from "ON SCREEN FEATS" Cap and Bucky look to be just as skilled or even more so than the watchmen.
Again going by whats shown in the movie. Not Comic statements or handbooks , or what level you think they should be at.

Originally posted by FrothByte

You know, there's a simpler explanation to your theory. Simply, Batroc is a better fighter than either Nightowl or Roscharch.

This can be argued as well.

We only have 1 screen feat from Batroc but we can determin certain things from that.

Everyone pretty much agrees that Cap>>>Ozy.

Batroc did decent against Cap.
Nite Owl and Rorschach did awefull vs Ozy.

So if Batroc did better against a superior fighter that Ozy
We can determine Batroc >>> Nite Owl/Rorschach