Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
False, because you're able to lift more because of the learned techniques. All that matters is that you're able to life more. not that you were already capable of doing that, you just didn't have the experience. That is irrelevant. All that matters is you can now lift more and easier thanks to your experience and technique improvement. That is the only measurement that matters. Thus you're stronger. Just like if your max was 300.. then somebody gives you a couple of pointers or you figure out something on your own.. and you lift 325 the next day. You were always capable of lifting that amount of weight, genetically you were always that capable... but you didn't do it till you got more experiences and training. It's that simple. You're now stronger thanks to your improvement cause you're capable of lifting more now.
So why the hell are you arguing with me? I already said that Cap improves his skill but he doesn't improve his physical stats.
Also, what has this got to do with this fight? Just drop it already. We'll talk about it more when it's applicable to the discussion.
We should focus on more relevant issues. You know, like how you described Cap as a brick...
Originally posted by FrothByte
So why the hell are you arguing with me? I already said that Cap improves his skill but he doesn't improve his physical stats.Also, what has this got to do with this fight? Just drop it already. We'll talk about it more when it's applicable to the discussion.
We should focus on more relevant issues. You know, like how you described Cap as a brick...
It's not dropped because you can't concede that you were wrong, and it's very likely Cap can indeed lift more now than as of TFA... thanks to studying or experience or both. Take your pick. You refused to concede Cap has indeed gotten stronger... even though you concede simple experience means he could lift more. That is why we are still here cause you're being obtuse. Fine though, I'll respect your wishes, and drop it. Just know though, that is why we are here, your stubbornness on the matter. That said, we can move on.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It's not dropped because you can't concede that you were wrong, and it's very likely Cap can indeed lift more now than as of TFA... thanks to studying or experience or both. Take your pick. You refused to concede Cap has indeed gotten stronger... even though you concede simple experience means he could lift more. That is why we are still here cause you're being obtuse. Fine though, I'll respect your wishes, and drop it. Just know though, that is why we are here, your stubbornness on the matter. That said, we can move on.
How can I concede I'm wrong when you haven't proven to me that I'm wrong?
My stance has always been that Cap improves in skill but not physical stats. Till now you have nothing to prove me wrong.
Now, let's focus on a question you're dodging. Do you still consider Cap a brick? Or are you going to swallow your pride and admit that you're wrong?
Originally posted by FrothByte
How can I concede I'm wrong when you haven't proven to me that I'm wrong?
My stance has always been that Cap improves in skill but not physical stats. Till now you have nothing to prove me wrong.Now, let's focus on a question you're dodging. Do you still consider Cap a brick? Or are you going to swallow your pride and admit that you're wrong?
You already did concede.
You conceded that Cap likely can lift more now through his experience is trying to lift thing. You conceded that simply lifting things over the years, one would learn about technique and leverage... and thus lift more. If you can lift more, you're stronger. You seem to separate the two.. Well... he can lift more.. but that doesn't mean he's stronger WTF!!! It absolutely means he's stronger, cause ya know, he can lift more now.
My statements stand on Cap. There is no need to concede a thing as I've already admitted he's very skilled and formidable. I stand by the fact that he's no accomplished master in various arts. He's not. However, that doesn't mean he doesn't have skill, he does, and he likely has studied various MA forms and learned from them. Never disputed that either. My contention is, that he's not skilled in the way Daredevil, Elektra and other are skilled. He's not. Doesn't mean he's not badass at what he does, but let's be real, he's mostly a boxer/Military type of fighting guy. He'll throw in the occasional fancy move, but he's mostly a I'm going to punch you real hard type of guy, not a Ozy.. I'm going to make you not land a blow with my back turned as if it was nothing. He's not that type of skilled. You disagree?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You already did concede.You conceded that Cap likely can lift more now through his experience is trying to lift thing. You conceded that simply lifting things over the years, one would learn about technique and leverage... and thus lift more. If you can lift more, you're stronger. You seem to separate the two.. Well... he can lift more.. but that doesn't mean he's stronger WTF!!! It absolutely means he's stronger, cause ya know, he can lift more now.
My statements stand on Cap. There is no need to concede a thing as I've already admitted he's very skilled and formidable. I stand by the fact that he's no accomplished master in various arts. He's not. However, that doesn't mean he doesn't have skill, he does, and he likely has studied various MA forms and learned from them. Never disputed that either. My contention is, that he's not skilled in the way Daredevil, Elektra and other are skilled. He's not. Doesn't mean he's not badass at what he does, but let's be real, he's mostly a boxer/Military type of fighting guy. He'll throw in the occasional fancy move, but he's mostly a I'm going to punch you real hard type of guy, not a Ozy.. I'm going to make you not land a blow with my back turned as if it was nothing. He's not that type of skilled. You disagree?
I never said those things, but sure man, whatever floats your boat.
You mention that Cap is a boxer/military type of guy. What exactly do you mean by that? Are you implying that military personnel can't be martial arts experts?
Originally posted by FrothByte
I never said those things, but sure man, whatever floats your boat.You mention that Cap is a boxer/military type of guy. What exactly do you mean by that? Are you implying that military personnel can't be martial arts experts?
I like how KT is dumb enough to think that lifting more due to better technique is the same as getting physically stronger.
IOW, He thinks that if I could normally lift 450 in the gym and after 5 minutes with a trainer correcting my technique I was able to lift 475. he thinks that means I got stronger in those 5 minutes.
Actually you said just that. You said Cap from TFA was just as strong as Cap from AoU.
yet turned around and said, yeah, he can likely lift from during AoU than TFA because he has more experience at lifting things. Thus he's improved his technique simply through experience. If you can lift more, you're stronger. Period. End of story.
Never said that. You didn't answer my question.. Is he skilled in the way Ozy is skilled.. i.e. back turned to excellent MA types, while casually trying, and not getting a blow landed on him? Do you believe Cap is skilled like Elektra or Daredevil is?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually you said just that. You said Cap from TFA was just as strong as Cap from AoU.yet turned around and said, yeah, he can likely lift from during AoU than TFA because he has more experience at lifting things. Thus he's improved his technique simply through experience. If you can lift more, you're stronger. Period. End of story.
Never said that. You didn't answer my question.. Is he skilled in the way Ozy is skilled.. i.e. back turned to excellent MA types, while casually trying, and not getting a blow landed on him? Do you believe Cap is skilled like Elektra or Daredevil is?
If I tried to pick up a dumbbell with one hand and was unable to, then tried to pick it up with both hands and was able to, did I become physically stronger? No, I just changed technique.
As far as fighting skill goes, yes, I believe Cap is just as skilled (maybe even moreso) than series Daredevil and movie Elektra. Movie Daredevil... I'll have to think about it. And yes, I also consider him more skilled than Ozy. Why? Because Cap has actually gone up against stronger opponents than him and only lasted as long as he did via superior skill and agility.
i.e. You are now able to lift more i.e. Stronger. The only way to determine who's stronger in a bench press contest is who can lift more. THAT is the measurement. Period. If Cap can lift more, he can lift more, and thus he's now stronger. No two ways about it.
yeah, I strongly disagree. Never, not once have I see Cap deal with people the way Ozy did N.O. and RO. Both of whom are peak human (superhuman durability)... and yet he could have his back turned and they still can't land a blow. Not one. Casually. That shows more skill than Cap ever displayed against any street leveler/peak human type.
He fought Batroc who's not more formidable by himself than N.O. and RO are together. No way. Yet Batroc was still able to land blows, even with Cap having a shield. Yet somehow, Cap is more skilled than Ozy.. when Ozy is casually beating up MA's with talking and having his back turned and they never once land on him. Yeah... okay bud. Those two aren't even close in comparison. Ozy displayed much more skill to accomplish what he did.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
i.e. You are now able to lift more i.e. Stronger. The only way to determine who's stronger in a bench press contest is who can lift more. THAT is the measurement. Period. If Cap can lift more, he can lift more, and thus he's now stronger. No two ways about it.yeah, I strongly disagree. Never, not once have I see Cap deal with people the way Ozy did N.O. and RO. Both of whom are peak human (superhuman durability)... and yet he could have his back turned and they still can't land a blow. Not one. Casually. That shows more skill than Cap ever displayed against any street leveler/peak human type.
He fought Batroc who's not more formidable by himself than N.O. and RO are together. No way. Yet Batroc was still able to land blows, even with Cap having a shield. Yet somehow, Cap is more skilled than Ozy.. when Ozy is casually beating up MA's with talking and having his back turned and they never once land on him. Yeah... okay bud. Those two aren't even close in comparison. Ozy displayed much more skill to accomplish what he did.
So because I'm able to lift a 50 lbs dumbbell with two hands it makes me stronger than the guy who can lift 40 lbs with one hand? Yeah... that doesn't make sense.
Anyway, let me try this from a different approach. Name me one opponent who was stronger than Ozy that he fought and was able to hang with due to skill? Actually, name me one opponent that Ozy fought who wasn't below him?
So... are you willing to take back your comment that Cap is a brick?
Originally posted by FrothByte
So because I'm able to lift a 50 lbs dumbbell with two hands it makes me stronger than the guy who can lift 40 lbs with one hand? Yeah... that doesn't make sense.Anyway, let me try this from a different approach. Name me one opponent who was stronger than Ozy that he fought and was able to hang with due to skill? Actually, name me one opponent that Ozy fought who wasn't below him?
So... are you willing to take back your comment that Cap is a brick?
Example: a person is able to lift say 450lbs using proper technique and then 5 seconds later fails to lift it while using an improper technique, so he goes back to the proper technique and lifts it again.
KT would explain it as: That person obviously has dynamic strength.
Originally posted by FrothByte
So because I'm able to lift a 50 lbs dumbbell with two hands it makes me stronger than the guy who can lift 40 lbs with one hand? Yeah... that doesn't make sense.Anyway, let me try this from a different approach. Name me one opponent who was stronger than Ozy that he fought and was able to hang with due to skill? Actually, name me one opponent that Ozy fought who wasn't below him?
So... are you willing to take back your comment that Cap is a brick?
Only, that is a horrible analogy. A better one is, I'm training at a gym... working on my clean and jerk and how much I can lift. A trainer at the gym notices a flaw in my technique, and after implementing what he taught me.. I can now lift more than I ever have. I'm now stronger. The only measurement for strength is what you actually lift or break or move... that is the measurement. So is no other measurement for strength than what you can do. That is it. So if you can lift more or move more.. you're now stronger. Period.
Don't need to, Ozy did better against 2 legit peak human fighters with Superhuman durability than Cap did against one fighter with peak human skills. THAT is the proof. They don't need to be stronger than him in any way. Cap fought with his shield against somebody inferior to both N.O. and RO combined skill wise. He casually beat them, without them landing a blow. IN stark contrast, Cap got hit, even while having his shield against one foe.
He is a brick, he just happens to be a skilled brick. Do you even know what a brick is? A brick is somebody super durable and super strong who mostly just punches and kicks people. That is Cap to a tee. Granted, he has more skills than simply being a brick. I don't disagree. He's not just your average brick with no skill. He has skill. That doesn't make him not a brick unless you are using a different definition than I've ever seen.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only, that is a horrible analogy. A better one is, I'm training at a gym... working on my clean and jerk and how much I can lift. A trainer at the gym notices a flaw in my technique, and after implementing what he taught me.. I can now lift more than I ever have. I'm now stronger. The only measurement for strength is what you actually lift or break or move... that is the measurement. So is no other measurement for strength than what you can do. That is it. So if you can lift more or move more.. you're now stronger. Period.Don't need to, Ozy did better against 2 legit peak human fighters with Superhuman durability than Cap did against one fighter with peak human skills. THAT is the proof. They don't need to be stronger than him in any way. Cap fought with his shield against somebody inferior to both N.O. and RO combined skill wise. He casually beat them, without them landing a blow. IN stark contrast, Cap got hit, even while having his shield against one foe.
He is a brick, he just happens to be a skilled brick. Do you even know what a brick is? A brick is somebody super durable and super strong who mostly just punches and kicks people. That is Cap to a tee. Granted, he has more skills than simply being a brick. I don't disagree. He's not just your average brick with no skill. He has skill. That doesn't make him not a brick unless you are using a different definition than I've ever seen.
If your definition of a brick is just someone who punches and kicks people, then that describes Ozy as well. So are we going to call Ozy a brick now?
Also, you literally have zero proof that Roscharch and Night Owl are more skilled than Batroc even when put together. And if you want to go with ABC logic here: Ultron was strong enough to cut a man's arm off without even putting effort into it. Later, a more powerful Ultron version was fought off by Captain America, and this was while on a moving vehicle, not to mention the fact that Ultron had blasters and can fly. Can you give me any feat at all of Ozy that can compare to this?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Can you picture Ozy in the elevator, like Cap was with the agents. Can you imagine even one of them landing a single thing on Ozy? I can't. He would've destroyed them with talking and not a blow landed on him. We can't say the same for Cap can we.
I can imagine about 10 of them hitting Ozy and also cuffing him to the wall and then beating him down.