Originally posted by Silent Master
So basically KT is arguing that because we don't see Cap training, the fights that clearly show he is a skilled fighter don't count.
Pretty much yeah. His analogy is that because Cap doesn't hold multiple black belts and that because we don't see him training in a dojo, it means he's not a skilled fighter.
Guess it never occurred to him that we don't see Ozy train as well.
Let's address two more situations that further prove my point:
1. The BW fight - Froth, do you honestly believe BW would've even been able to sneak up on Ozy the way she did to WS? I for one, think absolutely not, considering the reactions of Ozy and he blatantly avoiding rushes and attacks. Yet BW was able to get the jump on Ozy and briefly stalemate him. Granted, he tuck tail and ran cause she knew she couldn't win. However, he had chances to put her down and get a hold of her and didn't. So in the brief exchange they had. nobody won. I wouldn't call that a good showing for WS fighting a legit street leveler. Ozy would've caught her mind air, and slammed her to the ground effortlessly. Advantage Ozy.
Tell me, do you honestly believe Ozy would've had a single thing landed on him n the elevator scene with the agents? I for one, believe he would've casually crushed them will laughing at them and talking to them. Casually and easily. It wasn't the case for Cap was it. You honestly think they would've landed the same on Ozy... really?
Originally posted by Robtard
I've broken down the scene before, when he hits the brakes, the cycle makes a complete stop (we can see it stop) and he uses the forward momentum transferred to his body (think about being in a car and slamming on the brakes) to flip over it and then uses nothing but pure muscle power to lift and flip the cycle over himself, sending it flying forward.It really was a feat of agility and strength on his part.
Nah, when you stop a bike with only the front brakes it will easily flip over. You see this clearly in the scene. Cap also won't be able to muscle the bike through because he's in mid-air. The only way for him to achieve what he did is through momentum with a bit of push of his strength. Using pure strength is simply impossible from a physics stand point unless he's somehow heavier than the bike.
Originally posted by Robtard
I disagree and let me give you a real-life example as to why:I can lift 190lbs over my head, though I've never tried, I do not believe I would be able to throw those 190lbs 40-50 feet, let alone with enough force to crush and stop a speeding car.
Even if we drop it to 100lbs, as to "casually life", I don't think I could toss those same 100lbs over 40-50 feet.
There is no point trying to break it down into hard numbers, because while dropping the weight by 50% might be enough to explain the ease with which Cap did it, dropping the weight by 99.9% could also explain it.
I look at it this way, it both feats happened in the same movie I wouldn't have been surprised by the throw because I had already seen him holding a motorcycle w/3 people on it.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let's address two more situations that further prove my point:1. The BW fight - Froth, do you honestly believe BW would've even been able to sneak up on Ozy the way she did to WS? I for one, think absolutely not, considering the reactions of Ozy and he blatantly avoiding rushes and attacks. Yet BW was able to get the jump on Ozy and briefly stalemate him. Granted, he tuck tail and ran cause she knew she couldn't win. However, he had chances to put her down and get a hold of her and didn't. So in the brief exchange they had. nobody won. I wouldn't call that a good showing for WS fighting a legit street leveler. Ozy would've caught her mind air, and slammed her to the ground effortlessly. Advantage Ozy.
BW>Nite Owl & Rorschach
Based on screen feats and people they have gone against.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Tell me, do you honestly believe Ozy would've had a single thing landed on him n the elevator scene with the agents? I for one, believe he would've casually crushed them will laughing at them and talking to them. Casually and easily. It wasn't the case for Cap was it. You honestly think they would've landed the same on Ozy... really?
Ozy would have got destroyed in the elevator. He has no major durability feats. Plus he wouldnt have been able to free himself from that magnetic cuff.
He would have got stunned a few times like Cap did but like I siad , Ozy isnt as durable as Cap and he would go down with those tazer shots.
If Cap would have ran into the Jeep full speed on that bike, Kamikaze style, the impact would not have been as great as his throw.
Which caved in the front and sent the jeep into the air as well.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I can't really take much of what you say seriously anymore if you believe EITHER Cap or Bucky is more skilled h2h than Ozy. Cap is a great many things, one thing he not, is an expert martial artist. Cap is a brick. He's a boxer/Military combat kind of guy. He's not doing elaborate moves or kicks or flips while kicking. He's not turning his back and effortlessly blocking strikes while not looking from expert martial artists. To even try and say Cap is some expert marital artist is laughable. He's not. Just look at his fights and you'd see that.
Do we ever see the watchmen training or get any indication that they are super martial artists? You are stating these guys are clearly expert martial artists.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Now in stark contrast, Ozy fought some of the best MA around. Legit peak human or superhuman (in some areas) guys, and they couldn't land a single blow on him. Nothing. These are guys who are certified experts at various MA. They couldn't even land a blow and he was effortlessly beating them while doing a monologue. That is leaps and bounds about anything Cap has shown MA wise. If you disagree, name me the best MA he fought, and show me the clip of him effortlessly beating them, without them landing a blow. Post the damn clip. I challenged all the clowns in this thread who said WS wins. I challenged each and every one of you to feat comparison. Not one, not one person could post feats of Bucky matching the feats I provided for Ozy. Not one. Here again, baseless fanboy claims than Cap and Bucky are more skilled. What a complete joke. Post the feats or GTFO of here with that BS
Legit Super human? I already stated that if we go by your classification of "super human" then 99% of action heroes will fall under being super human. Thats absurd to me and cant even begin to try to accept that notion.
Please post clips of proof where its stated the watchmen are "expert" martial artists.
Because from "ON SCREEN FEATS" Cap and Bucky look to be just as skilled or even more so than the watchmen.
Again going by whats shown in the movie. Not Comic statements or handbooks , or what level you think they should be at.
Originally posted by FrothByte
You know, there's a simpler explanation to your theory. Simply, Batroc is a better fighter than either Nightowl or Roscharch.
This can be argued as well.
We only have 1 screen feat from Batroc but we can determin certain things from that.
Everyone pretty much agrees that Cap>>>Ozy.
Batroc did decent against Cap.
Nite Owl and Rorschach did awefull vs Ozy.
So if Batroc did better against a superior fighter that Ozy
We can determine Batroc >>> Nite Owl/Rorschach
Originally posted by FrothByte
Nah, when you stop a bike with only the front brakes it will easily flip over. You see this clearly in the scene. Cap also won't be able to muscle the bike through because he's in mid-air. The only way for him to achieve what he did is through momentum with a bit of push of his strength. Using pure strength is simply impossible from a physics stand point unless he's somehow heavier than the bike.
Actually you're correct, watched it again, the bike starts to lift before Cap's feet touch ground, I though it was after, so it was partially momentum. Good catch 👆
Still a great showing of strength, considering. Just less so than I imagined.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Pretty much yeah. His analogy is that because Cap doesn't hold multiple black belts and that because we don't see him training in a dojo, it means he's not a skilled fighter.Guess it never occurred to him that we don't see Ozy train as well.
Don't be as dumb as Silent, as he's pretty damn dumb. You have my argument completely wrong.
Get this straight... I'm claiming HE HAS IMPROVED HIS SKILL WITHOUT SEEING HIM TRAIN IN A DOJO. THAT IS MY EXACT POINT. Jesus, I've repeated this over and over, and yet I still see this moronic comment from you. This has been my point all along, he has improved and doesn't need to be shown training.
YOU CLAIMED THAT CAP HAS TO BE SHOWN TRAINING TECHNIQUES AND LEVERAGE in order for you to believe he's gotten stronger. You concede learning those things would make one be able to lift more. Yet, since you don't seem him training for that specifically he hasn't. THAT is YOUR CLAIM and the hypocrisy I'm exposing in you.
You're so hypocritical you can't even get your own arguments right let alone mine. This whole discussion STARTED with YOUR claim that unless you see Cap training to improve his technique and leverage knowledge that he hasn't. Shall I post the quotes where you've said this multiple times???? I'm the one saying we can logically assume he has, since it's Cap and we don't have to be shown him fighting in a dojo or practicing leverage. It's a given, he's always trying improve what he's capable of. That's the basis for the damn character. You're the one saying nope, nah, if I don't see it, it didn't happen. Jesus H. Christ. You've stooped to a new low now.
What's worse, even if he didn't train in technique and leverage (disagree) just experience alone in lifting random things would increase his knowledge about technique and leverage. He doesn't even need to train. Experience would do that as well. yet here froth is gong, nope nah, I don't think he has improved his strength at all. LMAO.. jesus. Where is that damn facepalm emo
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Let's address two more situations that further prove my point:1. The BW fight - Froth, do you honestly believe BW would've even been able to sneak up on Ozy the way she did to WS? I for one, think absolutely not, considering the reactions of Ozy and he blatantly avoiding rushes and attacks. Yet BW was able to get the jump on Ozy and briefly stalemate him. Granted, he tuck tail and ran cause she knew she couldn't win. However, he had chances to put her down and get a hold of her and didn't. So in the brief exchange they had. nobody won. I wouldn't call that a good showing for WS fighting a legit street leveler. Ozy would've caught her mind air, and slammed her to the ground effortlessly. Advantage Ozy.
Tell me, do you honestly believe Ozy would've had a single thing landed on him n the elevator scene with the agents? I for one, believe he would've casually crushed them will laughing at them and talking to them. Casually and easily. It wasn't the case for Cap was it. You honestly think they would've landed the same on Ozy... really?
1. If BW used the same devices, weapons and tactics she used against WS, then yeah, she definitely can sneak up on Ozy. Also, she didn't stalemate WS at all. It took all of 3 seconds for WS to get her off his back.
2. If Ozy was in the elevator with the SHIELD guys, he'd have had more hits land on him than Cap had. He also wouldn't have survived the fall quite as gracefully as Cap. Why? Because he doesn't have the same durability feats as Cap does.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Don't be as dumb as Silent, as he's pretty damn dumb. You have my argument completely wrong.Get this straight... I'm claiming HE HAS IMPROVED HIS SKILL WITHOUT SEEING HIM TRAIN IN A DOJO. THAT IS MY EXACT POINT. Jesus, I've repeated this over and over, and yet I still see this moronic comment from you. This has been my point all along, he has improved and doesn't need to be shown training.
YOU CLAIMED THAT CAP HAS TO BE SHOWN TRAINING TECHNIQUES AND LEVERAGE in order for you to believe he's gotten stronger. You concede learning those things would make one be able to lift more. Yet, since you don't seem him training for that specifically he hasn't. THAT is YOUR CLAIM and the hypocrisy I'm exposing in you.
You're so hypocritical you can't even get your own arguments right let alone mine. This whole discussion STARTED with YOUR claim that unless you see Cap training to improve his technique and leverage knowledge that he hasn't. Shall I post the quotes where you've said this multiple times???? I'm the one saying we can logically assume he has, since it's Cap and we don't have to be shown him fighting in a dojo or practicing leverage. It's a given, he's always trying improve what he's capable of. That's the basis for the damn character. You're the one saying nope, nah, if I don't see it, it didn't happen. Jesus H. Christ. You've stooped to a new low now.
What's worse, even if he didn't train in technique and leverage (disagree) just experience alone in lifting random things would increase his knowledge about technique and leverage. He doesn't even need to train. Experience would do that as well. yet here froth is gong, nope nah, I don't think he has improved his strength at all. LMAO.. jesus. Where is that damn facepalm emo
I'll say this only once more KT, because you seem to have very selective memory. We see Cap fight. We see him train to fight (see punching bag scene) so it only follows that he's improving his fighting skill.
What we don't see him do is bench press or power lift or lift dumbells, which is why I said I don't think his strength is improving.
Is this clear enough for you?
Originally posted by Inhuman
Do we ever see the watchmen training or get any indication that they are super martial artists? You are stating these guys are clearly expert martial artists.Legit Super human? I already stated that if we go by your classification of "super human" then 99% of action heroes will fall under being super human. Thats absurd to me and cant even begin to try to accept that notion.
Please post clips of proof where its stated the watchmen are "expert" martial artists.
Because from "ON SCREEN FEATS" Cap and Bucky look to be just as skilled or even more so than the watchmen.
Again going by whats shown in the movie. Not Comic statements or handbooks , or what level you think they should be at.This can be argued as well.
We only have 1 screen feat from Batroc but we can determin certain things from that.
Everyone pretty much agrees that Cap>>>Ozy.
Batroc did decent against Cap.
Nite Owl and Rorschach did awefull vs Ozy.So if Batroc did better against a superior fighter that Ozy
We can determine Batroc >>> Nite Owl/Rorschach
Completely false and incorrect. This would presume Batroc is more skilled than N.O. and RO combined... and that is blatantly false, and you have zero way to prove such a thing. I have clips of N.O. and RO destroying Big Strong prison dudes and don't have a blow landed on them. Show me the equivalent for Batroc for you to make such a claim. However, NOT just equivalent, in order for Batroc to be more skilled than both combined we'd need to see feats well surpassing what I named. He has none.
So what we are left with is, Batroc is not more skilled that N.O. and RO combined. Yet was still able to land blows on a trying Cap WITH his shield. In stark contrasts... those two equally skilled guys or better, were unable to land ANY blows, even with his back turned at times and ozy BARELY TRYING. To even think that was a better showing for Cap than Ozy means you have never watched a combat sport in your entire life, and literally lack the logical deductive reasoning needed to have these conversations. It's mind boggling really. I just want to hear you say it though... So you claim Batroc is more skilled and formidable than N.O. and RO combined in h2h combat?
Originally posted by FrothByte
I'll say this only once more KT, because you seem to have very selective memory. We see Cap fight. We see him train to fight (see punching bag scene) so it only follows that he's improving his fighting skill.What we don't see him do is bench press or power lift or lift dumbells, which is why I said I don't think his strength is improving.
Is this clear enough for you?
incorrect because we SEE his strength feats improve... just like you claim you see his h2h skill improve. WE SEE BOTH IMPROVE. Yet in one instance you give him the benefit of the doubt, and in another (where the argument doesn't suit you) you'd need to see it first. THAT is the hypocrisy going on here.
Do you not concede that simply lifting things over years and continually trying to lift random new things, you'd naturally learn about technique and leverage and thus improve what you're capable of lifting and the ease in which you do it? Disagree?
Originally posted by FrothByteMaking him ironically the hypocrite he ascribed to your character. He uses double standards left and right and debates purely off of his own bias.
Pretty much yeah. His analogy is that because Cap doesn't hold multiple black belts and that because we don't see him training in a dojo, it means he's not a skilled fighter.Guess it never occurred to him that we don't see Ozy train as well.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
incorrect because we SEE his strength feats improve... just like you claim you see his h2h skill improve. WE SEE BOTH IMPROVE. Yet in one instance you give him the benefit of the doubt, and in another (where the argument doesn't suit you) you'd need to see it first. THAT is the hypocrisy going on here.Do you not concede that simply lifting things over years and continually trying to lift random new things, you'd naturally learn about technique and leverage and thus improve what you're capable of lifting and the ease in which you do it? Disagree?
Yes, but then all you're doing is improving technique. You're not increasing your strength. Yes?
Originally posted by Inhuman
Again with the prison guards.Most of the Agents of sheild cast (along with TONS of other action stars) can dispatch those prisoners in the same fashion.
And I didnt say "Combined" I mean Batroc is better than each one of those 2 individually. Based on what we can determine with on screen feats.
Even if you believe he's better than them individually (I disagree) You concede he's not better skill wise than both of them combined. So if that's the case how can:
Ozy fought these two guys at the same time, who combined are more formidable h2h together than Batroc is alone... barely even try when fighting them.. and yet they don't land a single blow on him. How the F on God's green earth is that a lower showing than
Cap, while trying AND his shield, is still having blows landed on him?
In what Bizarro world is that a better showing for Cap?
Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes, but then all you're doing is improving technique. You're not increasing your strength. Yes?
False, because you're able to lift more because of the learned techniques. All that matters is that you're able to life more. not that you were already capable of doing that, you just didn't have the experience. That is irrelevant. All that matters is you can now lift more and easier thanks to your experience and technique improvement. That is the only measurement that matters. Thus you're stronger. Just like if your max was 300.. then somebody gives you a couple of pointers or you figure out something on your own.. and you lift 325 the next day. You were always capable of lifting that amount of weight, genetically you were always that capable... but you didn't do it till you got more experiences and training. It's that simple. You're now stronger thanks to your improvement cause you're capable of lifting more now.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Even if you believe he's better than them individually (I disagree) You concede he's not better skill wise than both of them combined. So if that's the case how can:Ozy fought these two guys at the same time, who combined are more formidable h2h together than Batroc is alone... barely even try when fighting them.. and yet they don't land a single blow on him. How the F on God's green earth is that a lower showing than
Cap, while trying AND his shield, is still having blows landed on him?
In what Bizarro world is that a better showing for Cap?
All this gets thrown out the window when Cap puts away his shield and dispatches Batroc in seconds.
Nite Owl and Rorschach were still conscious after the hits from Ozy. Batroc was in dreamland.
And dont give me that "super human" theory for Nite Owl.
Im pretty sure that Cap could have killed Batroc in one hit if he was going all out. If Cap had punched him just like he punched that submarine. Batroc would have no face or head for that matter.