Ozymandias vs. Winter Soldier (h2h)

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
1:38 in this vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSRPg6-5WJQ

1:50, 1:56, 2:17, 2:20, 2:24, 2:45

YouTube video

3:08, 3:10, 3:12

YouTube video

So there are 10 examples of things Cap apparently doesn't do in combat. And that is without getting into the elevator or final fight. And that is just from TWS.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Only, that is a horrible analogy. A better one is, I'm training at a gym... working on my clean and jerk and how much I can lift. A trainer at the gym notices a flaw in my technique, and after implementing what he taught me.. I can now lift more than I ever have. I'm now stronger. The only measurement for strength is what you actually lift or break or move... that is the measurement. So is no other measurement for strength than what you can do. That is it. So if you can lift more or move more.. you're now stronger. Period.

Don't need to, Ozy did better against 2 legit peak human fighters with Superhuman durability than Cap did against one fighter with peak human skills. THAT is the proof. They don't need to be stronger than him in any way. Cap fought with his shield against somebody inferior to both N.O. and RO combined skill wise. He casually beat them, without them landing a blow. IN stark contrast, Cap got hit, even while having his shield against one foe.

He is a brick, he just happens to be a skilled brick. Do you even know what a brick is? A brick is somebody super durable and super strong who mostly just punches and kicks people. That is Cap to a tee. Granted, he has more skills than simply being a brick. I don't disagree. He's not just your average brick with no skill. He has skill. That doesn't make him not a brick unless you are using a different definition than I've ever seen.

Did you intentionally miss the above clarification a little bit after the post you partially quoted? So what about the above is incorrect. I wasn't saying he can't or never does, simply that this is a main this in his arsenal. He's mainly a punch a kick guys really hard. Not a acrobat who's pulling off elaborate kicks and clips all the time while fighting. He's no Elektra or Daredevil or Legolas etc etc. He's not that type of fighter. Which is a 100% true and what I was illustrating.

Froth just couldn't combat my last post to him breaking down the Batroc, WS and Elevator fights. It's okay Froth, it happens

Originally posted by Dreampanther
👆

Should have done this thread with a poll. At least we would have ended up with some kind of result.

You mean like we had in the Yoda vs. Khan thread, where like 95% voted for Yoda, a great number of votes were cast mind you. Like those kind of polling results?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Did you intentionally miss the above clarification a little bit after the post you partially quoted? So what about the above is incorrect. I wasn't saying he can't or never does, simply that this is a main this in his arsenal. He's mainly a punch a kick guys really hard. Not a acrobat who's pulling off elaborate kicks and clips all the time while fighting. He's no Elektra or Daredevil or Legolas etc etc. He's not that type of fighter. Which is a 100% true and what I was illustrating.

If you actually watched the Winter Soldier (and Age of Ultron), you'll know that Cap actually does more acrobatics than Elektra, Legolas or Ozy. Besides, just what exactly are you looking for: A martial artist or an acrobat?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Did you intentionally miss the above clarification a little bit after the post you partially quoted? So what about the above is incorrect. I wasn't saying he can't or never does, simply that this is a main this in his arsenal. He's mainly a punch a kick guys really hard. Not a acrobat who's pulling off elaborate kicks and clips all the time while fighting. He's no Elektra or Daredevil or Legolas etc etc. He's not that type of fighter. Which is a 100% true and what I was illustrating.

Yeah, you "clarified" after being called out. You never said anything about "main arsenal", or compared him directly to those people you just listed, when you made the claim. You said Cap isn't doing elaborate moves, kicks or kicks while flipping. Trying to cover it up with later posts doesn't change that.

What I'm curious about is that now that we've clarified that Cap actually does do quite a bit of acrobatics, more acrobatics than Ozy in fact, does KT now think Cap is a better fighter than Ozy?

Originally posted by FrothByte
If you actually watched the Winter Soldier (and Age of Ultron), you'll know that Cap actually does more acrobatics than Elektra, Legolas or Ozy. Besides, just what exactly are you looking for: A martial artist or an acrobat?

More acrobatics than Legolas BWAHAHAHA. Not Elektra.. again... simply no. DO you even know who Elektra is and her capabilities. The reality is, you said Cap wasn't a brick, when in fact that is EXACTLY what he is. That is him personified. Just because he happens to be very skilled doesn't mean he's not a brick. A brick means... A big, strong, durable, powerful dude who mostly punches and kicks his way to victory. You're acting like Cap is a finesse guy more than a brick guy... He's absolutely unquestionably NOT a finesse more than a brick guy. Take Thanos for example... He's considered a brick, cause that is how he fights.. yet he has TP, TK, and other exotic powers not associated with bricks.. doesn't mean he's not a big, strong, durable, powerful guy who destroys people with his punches. He is, Same with Cap. Even pretending he has as much finesse as an Elektra or a Daredevil or Legolas or any number of people is laughable

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Yeah, you "clarified" after being called out. You never said anything about "main arsenal", or compared him directly to those people you just listed, when you made the claim. You said Cap isn't doing elaborate moves, kicks or kicks while flipping. Trying to cover it up with later posts doesn't change that.

Faulty reasoning and red herring. Is it your contention that subsequent posts don't matter clarifying positions.. only the first post matters? Surely that can't be your position, but it seemingly is with the post above. In a medium where not all things are expressed because some feel there may not be a need, or just simply forgetting to elaborate further, or just simple misunderstanding in the same vein as a text. Hence why I expanded on what I said, and everything I said was a 100% true. He asked to clarify my position and I did with facts. He's not some Elektra, he's not Legolas, he's not Daredevil, shit he's not Wade.. he doesn't have that type of finesse. Sure, he's agile and strong enough to pull off moves sometimes, but that's not his forte, and trying to claim other with is being disingenuous.

Tell you what, since you want to really delve into the issue (you're not going to like the results) Let's do a comparison. It's my claim that Cap mostly dispatches his foes like a brick... powerful punches or kicks. You seem to disagree. So let's compare each person he's fought and taken out... and see if he's done more via what I say, or via finesse and acrobatics? Deal?

Just because Cap doesn't need to rely on his skills as heavily as other less physically powerful characters doesn't mean he's less skilled, that would directly contradict all the scenes posted so far by other posters, Thanosi.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
More acrobatics than Legolas BWAHAHAHA. Not Elektra.. again... simply no. DO you even know who Elektra is and her capabilities. The reality is, you said Cap wasn't a brick, when in fact that is EXACTLY what he is. That is him personified. Just because he happens to be very skilled doesn't mean he's not a brick. A brick means... A big, strong, durable, powerful dude who mostly punches and kicks his way to victory. You're acting like Cap is a finesse guy more than a brick guy... He's absolutely unquestionably NOT a finesse more than a brick guy. Take Thanos for example... He's considered a brick, cause that is how he fights.. yet he has TP, TK, and other exotic powers not associated with bricks.. doesn't mean he's not a big, strong, durable, powerful guy who destroys people with his punches. He is, Same with Cap. Even pretending he has as much finesse as an Elektra or a Daredevil or Legolas or any number of people is laughable

Please post proof that Elektra does more acrobatics than Cap. Please post proof that Legolas does more acrobatics than Cap. Legolas has a lot of crazy agility and nimbleness feats but he doesn't exactly do a lot of flips.

Here's another proof of Cap's acrobatic ability:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYSgkqc9EWI

Originally posted by FrothByte
What I'm curious about is that now that we've clarified that Cap actually does do quite a bit of acrobatics, more acrobatics than Ozy in fact, does KT now think Cap is a better fighter than Ozy?

100% This post which you can't counter address who shown more skill. You have no counter to it. Period. When comparing the similar level of people they fought. Ozy clearly and decisively out shines him as shown below

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Incorrect, Ozy would deal with the elevator situation much better and with ease. It's as simple as that. That is just want he does to these level guys. He's much faster than Cap based on feats.. Clearly better and dealing with people attacking him from behind and still not being able to land. Legit peak human skill level guys. Not a hit. Being faster and that skilled means he's doing his monologue while laughing at them and destroying them. It's that simple. You know it I know it.

You ask for feats that Ozy doesn't have, but guess what neither does Cap. Who's the best people Cap fought and won against name somebody stronger, faster and more powerful that Cap beat? Nobody. It's irrelevant to the point. Here's what is important here, the key fights against similar people and how they fared. Let's examine...

Elevator scene for Capf as an example. Ozy has dealt with multiple foes, better foes at the same time and literally laughed at them. His track record against multiple foes is stellar. Cap's on the other hand isn't as stellar. Fact. He's done good, but not as good, as Ozy has done against multiple better foes. Check Ozy

How about against Peak human level skill guys. Let's examine.

Cap has fought WS and Batroc. In both cases they were long drawn out fights. Prolonged fights even. In the situation of the WS, I'll cut him a little more slack. I'll concede he's more formidable than Batroc, and thus it should be harder.. but that hard? Let's go further

Now examine how Batroc did against Cap who was trying to put him down and apprehend him and.. and... had his shield. Still had multiple blows landed on him and it was a long drawn out fight. One could even say Batroc had the advantage early on. He had no shield, and was forcing the action and landing blows.

Then take how a non trying Ozy, non trying is the key here.. he then proceeds to kick the ever long crap out of N.O. and RO without getting one, not one hit landed on him. Are these guys subpar to batroc? No, on the contrary, each of them individually could keep up with batroc h2h and pull wins as well imo. Either. However, lets' say batroc is slightly better than both individually.. well, he's certainly not better than both of them combined. 2 guys as skilled as N.O. and RO. are without question more formindable than Batroc alone (with a shield). Lets' examine how he did... well he didn't have a single fing blow landed on him and look effortless in kicking the crap out of them. As if it was a walk in the park.

How about another peak human and superhuman in some areas Comedian... Did he do worse, did he struggle? Not in any way. He still looked casual in every single thing he did. Casually moving so fast to be right next to Comedian before he coucl fire and react.. even being more than 15 away to start. Effortless. Then proceeds to kick the shit out of the comedian with utter ease. Not even getting hit flush and only got pushed back by a bull rush... then quickly dodged ducked and destroyed him. Efforlessly.

In contrast Cap did get serious, and I will not dispute he just said okay, let me go to this level, and that level dominated batroc. Problem is, Ozy didn't even go to that level. He never ramped it up. He did so effortlessly against more formidable foes.

I concede WS is better than Batroc, but again it was a struggle, and again it wasn't effortless. Again WS is not formindable alone in h2h combat than both RO or NO. or even the comedian. He's simply not. Again Cap struggles, he's trying, he's straining.. Ozy does struggle and he's not even trying. As I said Bucky is formindable, and Cap beat him. He gets loads of credit for it. However, the contrasts in the ease in which they won is the telling thing here.

So now where are we:

Against multiple trained foes - Ozy
Against peak human level foes - again Ozy

Those are what we can compare, not things neither has faced. All you need to do is use logic and common sense and you'll realize the ease in which Ozy did what he did to N.O. and the Comedian... If he really ramped it up, Bucky is ****ed, and that is the bottom line here. He's simply superior based on being better at every single damn thing related to combat. Simple Bucky's good, but he's not Ozy good. Cap showed that, and Ozy would to and by feats, easier.

Which again, unquestionably shows, Ozy is more skilled.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Please post proof that Elektra does more acrobatics than Cap. Please post proof that Legolas does more acrobatics than Cap. Legolas has a lot of crazy agility and nimbleness feats but he doesn't exactly do a lot of flips.

Here's another proof of Cap's acrobatic ability:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYSgkqc9EWI

It's funny how KT keeps insisting that Ozy is more acrobatic than Cap and yet he hasn't posted a single clip to prove this.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Just because Cap doesn't need to rely on his skills as heavily as other less physically powerful characters doesn't mean he's less skilled, that would directly contradict all the scenes posted so far by other posters, Thanosi.

Incorrect. He has to show it. He's shown glimpses of some things. I given him credit for that. It's nothing special. You have to prove you're skilled enough to not rely on your power. You can't just be skilled, still use your power most often, and then you turn around and go... yeah, see, he could use his skill all the time to beat people he just chooses to use his power. Nah, doesn't work that way.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Please post proof that Elektra does more acrobatics than Cap. Please post proof that Legolas does more acrobatics than Cap. Legolas has a lot of crazy agility and nimbleness feats but he doesn't exactly do a lot of flips.

Here's another proof of Cap's acrobatic ability:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYSgkqc9EWI

I can't take you seriously anymore. Honestly Legolas poops all over Cap when it comes to Finesse and skill. To even pretend he doesn't is simply laughable. He literally flips all over the place using his agility and will stab, throw, kick, shoot arrows with precision almost every single time killing or disabling his foe. His track record using agility, finesse and skill is legendary. If you honestly believe Cap shows more acrobatics than Legolas, then we simply can't discuss much of anything further. If you do really feel that way, and want to continue, we can do a BZ very easily and see who has displayed more finesse, skill and acrobatics.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I can't take you seriously anymore. Honestly Legolas poops all over Cap when it comes to Finesse and skill. To even pretend he doesn't is simply laughable. He literally flips all over the place using his agility and will stab, throw, kick, shoot arrows with precision almost every single time killing or disabling his foe. His track record using agility, finesse and skill is legendary. If you honestly believe Cap shows more acrobatics than Legolas, then we simply can't discuss much of anything further. If you do really feel that way, and want to continue, we can do a BZ very easily and see who has displayed more finesse, skill and acrobatics.

Why don't you post proof of Ozy using more acrobatics than Cap?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I can't take you seriously anymore. Honestly Legolas poops all over Cap when it comes to Finesse and skill. To even pretend he doesn't is simply laughable. He literally flips all over the place using his agility and will stab, throw, kick, shoot arrows with precision almost every single time killing or disabling his foe. His track record using agility, finesse and skill is legendary. If you honestly believe Cap shows more acrobatics than Legolas, then we simply can't discuss much of anything further. If you do really feel that way, and want to continue, we can do a BZ very easily and see who has displayed more finesse, skill and acrobatics.

So basically what you're saying is you are unable to post proof of Elektra, Ozy or Legolas doing more acrobatics than Cap. Am I right?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Faulty reasoning and red herring. Is it your contention that subsequent posts don't matter clarifying positions.. only the first post matters? Surely that can't be your position, but it seemingly is with the post above. In a medium where not all things are expressed because some feel there may not be a need, or just simply forgetting to elaborate further, or just simple misunderstanding in the same vein as a text. Hence why I expanded on what I said, and everything I said was a 100% true. He asked to clarify my position and I did with facts. He's not some Elektra, he's not Legolas, he's not Daredevil, shit he's not Wade.. he doesn't have that type of finesse. Sure, he's agile and strong enough to pull off moves sometimes, but that's not his forte, and trying to claim other with is being disingenuous.

Tell you what, since you want to really delve into the issue (you're not going to like the results) Let's do a comparison. It's my claim that Cap mostly dispatches his foes like a brick... powerful punches or kicks. You seem to disagree. So let's compare each person he's fought and taken out... and see if he's done more via what I say, or via finesse and acrobatics? Deal?

So did you make a statement that heavily implied, hell, flat out state one thing, and then "forgot" to clarify further that you actually meant something different? And didn't think that anyone would potentially find contention with that statement when you made it? Considering the long, detailed walls of text you are prone to writing, forgive me if I find that hard to believe.

And nice strawman. In no way, shape or form did I ever say that Cap uses more acrobatics than hits or kicks in combat. All I proved was that he does in fact use a variety of kicks, flips and other techniques when necessary. And funny how you now want to include kicks, when it was one of the things you specifically excluded in the statement in question.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So basically what you're saying is you are unable to post proof of Elektra, Ozy or Legolas doing more acrobatics than Cap. Am I right?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far the list of things that KT hasn't been able to post proof of Ozy being superior in.

1. Strength
2. Durability
3. Agility
4. Fighting speed

Originally posted by Silent Master
Correct me if I'm wrong, but so far the list of things that KT hasn't been able to post proof of Ozy being superior in.

1. Strength
2. Durability
3. Agility
4. Fighting speed

He's also been unable to provide proof of how exactly Night Owl, Roscharch and Comedian are supposedly legit peak humans whereas BW and Batroc are questionable.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Incorrect. He has to show it. He's shown glimpses of some things. I given him credit for that. It's nothing special. You have to prove you're skilled enough to not rely on your power. You can't just be skilled, still use your power most often, and then you turn around and go... yeah, see, he could use his skill all the time to beat people he just chooses to use his power. Nah, doesn't work that way.

You act like you actually expect Cap to pull of some elaborate, Widow-like, move every time he fights someone, when a punch or shield strike is usually all that is necessary to do the job. And the times when he does pull off the flashier stuff are usually the occasions he fights guys like Winter Soldier, Ultron etc.

Edit: I don't know about other posters here, but if I had a choice between punching someone or front-flip kicking them, when I know either would work, I would just punch them.