Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This post, counter the points. You claimed Cap has done better against comparable people. That is completing false as I've shown. Back up your claims and address the points. There aren't huge paragraphs, nor many questions at all. I summarizing the points in the thread and arguments. Simple
Ever watched Agents of SHIELD? So far every SHIELD agent we've seen have been capable of taking out fodder as easily as Night Owl and Roscharch. Cap took out a full elevator of them.
So fighting multiple opponents? Cap has the edge. After all, Ozy only fought 2 opponents at a time. Cap fought more.
Fighting peak level (non-fodder) opponents? Yes, I give you this one. Ozy defeated 2 at the same time whereas Cap only fought one on one (that I recall). But that is negated by the last point which is:
Fighting superhuman opponents: Cap has defeated Red Skull and Winter Soldier, even went up against Loki and Ultron and managed to not get outrightly killed.
Now I've answered your question, hope you're happy. Can you now post a video showing Legolas and Elektra doing more acrobatics than Cap? Or are you finally going to admit that acrobatics is not a good way to judge someone's fighting skill?
Originally posted by FrothByte
Ever watched Agents of SHIELD? So far every SHIELD agent we've seen have been capable of taking out fodder as easily as Night Owl and Roscharch. Cap took out a full elevator of them.So fighting multiple opponents? Cap has the edge. After all, Ozy only fought 2 opponents at a time. Cap fought more.
Fighting peak level (non-fodder) opponents? Yes, I give you this one. Ozy defeated 2 at the same time whereas Cap only fought one on one (that I recall). But that is negated by the last point which is:
Fighting superhuman opponents: Cap has defeated Red Skull and Winter Soldier, even went up against Loki and Ultron and managed to not get outrightly killed.
Now I've answered your question, hope you're happy. Can you now post a video showing Legolas and Elektra doing more acrobatics than Cap? Or are you finally going to admit that acrobatics is not a good way to judge someone's fighting skill?
The thing is since Batroc did better against a superhuman opponent than they did 2 on 1, the argument can easily be made than Batroc > them.
Originally posted by Silent Master
The thing is since Batroc did better against a superhuman opponent than they did 2 on 1, the argument can easily be made than Batroc > them.
Yeah that was my stance as well. But I'm giving KT a bit of leeway here in the hopes that once I answer his question he'll finally answer one of mine properly.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Ever watched Agents of SHIELD? So far every SHIELD agent we've seen have been capable of taking out fodder as easily as Night Owl and Roscharch. Cap took out a full elevator of them.So fighting multiple opponents? Cap has the edge. After all, Ozy only fought 2 opponents at a time. Cap fought more.
Fighting peak level (non-fodder) opponents? Yes, I give you this one. Ozy defeated 2 at the same time whereas Cap only fought one on one (that I recall). But that is negated by the last point which is:
Fighting superhuman opponents: Cap has defeated Red Skull and Winter Soldier, even went up against Loki and Ultron and managed to not get outrightly killed.
Now I've answered your question, hope you're happy. Can you now post a video showing Legolas and Elektra doing more acrobatics than Cap? Or are you finally going to admit that acrobatics is not a good way to judge someone's fighting skill?
Going against Loki and Ultron have no bearing. He did nothing at all to them. Nor did he beat them.
Again, to even pretend that the Agents of Shield are the same skill level as RO and N.O. That is a complete fantasy to even try and peddle that theory. N.O. and RO have peak human skill and superhuman durability. Period. Agents of Shield are not in their league. Even trying to make that claim, is quan-level debating, and you know it.
So with the above, NO Cap is not better at fight multiple people. The key to fighting multiple people is speed and skill. Not just h2h skill, but the skill to fought off multiple foes, sometimes while having you back turned but predicting movements. That kind of skill. You know, the skill that Ozy has displayed against peak human skill guys that Cap has not, that kind of skill. Ozy would unquestionably be better at taking out shield agents faster and prettier than Cap did, all the while laughing and having a funny little convo with them. So Ozy is better at multiple people.
Ozy also has better feats against Peak-Human level fighters. Which you agree with. I accept no notion that Batroc is more formidable skill wise than N.O. or RO combined. That is simply laughable, and you know it.
The last one is tricky. I'll concede that Cap has fought more super-human level foes than Ozy. This is me being generous to Cap. As I stated in numerous posts, N.O. and RO are just as formidable in h2h combat 2 v 1 as WS is 1 v 1. However, I did concede that while I believe N.O. and RO have certain superhuman qualities, I'd say WS is more superhuman if that makes sense. So I'll give him that. However, N.O. and RO are in the ballpark together, compared to WS alone. So, yes Cap has fought a superhuman level guy and won. Ozy, kind of fought 2 and easily won. One could argue thus Cap did better having fought a better foe. I'd would submit that N.O and RO, along with the comedian are high level dudes. The ease of which Ozy dispatched them, tells me that logically, if Ozy was really going all out, he'd have no issue dealing with slightly more superhuman guys than N.O. or RO. If he dealt with them THAT easily 2 v 1. Then ask yourself, if he fought a slightly better, more superhuman foe, if he ramped it up a little, it's ease to see how he could win. The ease in which he did what he did is the key thing here. Cap never did things with such ease against these level dudes.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Going against Loki and Ultron have no bearing. He did nothing at all to them. Nor did he beat them.Again, to even pretend that the Agents of Shield are the same skill level as RO and N.O. That is a complete fantasy to even try and peddle that theory. N.O. and RO have peak human skill and superhuman durability. Period. Agents of Shield are not in their league. Even trying to make that claim, is quan-level debating, and you know it.
So with the above, NO Cap is not better at fight multiple people. The key to fighting multiple people is speed and skill. Not just h2h skill, but the skill to fought off multiple foes, sometimes while having you back turned but predicting movements. That kind of skill. You know, the skill that Ozy has displayed against peak human skill guys that Cap has not, that kind of skill. Ozy would unquestionably be better at taking out shield agents faster and prettier than Cap did, all the while laughing and having a funny little convo with them. So Ozy is better at multiple people.
Ozy also has better feats against Peak-Human level fighters. Which you agree with. I accept no notion that Batroc is more formidable skill wise than N.O. or RO combined. That is simply laughable, and you know it.
The last one is tricky. I'll concede that Cap has fought more super-human level foes than Ozy. This is me being generous to Cap. As I stated in numerous posts, N.O. and RO are just as formidable in h2h combat 2 v 1 as WS is 1 v 1. However, I did concede that while I believe N.O. and RO have certain superhuman qualities, I'd say WS is more superhuman if that makes sense. So I'll give him that. However, N.O. and RO are in the ballpark together, compared to WS alone. So, yes Cap has fought a superhuman level guy and won. Ozy, kind of fought 2 and easily won. One could argue thus Cap did better having fought a better foe. I'd would submit that N.O and RO, along with the comedian are high level dudes. The ease of which Ozy dispatched them, tells me that logically, if Ozy was really going all out, he'd have no issue dealing with slightly more superhuman guys than N.O. or RO. If he dealt with them THAT easily 2 v 1. Then ask yourself, if he fought a slightly better, more superhuman foe, if he ramped it up a little, it's ease to see how he could win. The ease in which he did what he did is the key thing here. Cap never did things with such ease against these level dudes.
You say Agents of SHIELD are not in the same league as the Watchmen. I say they are. See? Both can play this game.
Difference between us is I actually provide videos to back up my claims. You have none. I say you're dodging. And it's really pointless to debate with you because you are unwilling to provide any proof of your claims. You're all talk.
Originally posted by FrothByte
You say Agents of SHIELD are not in the same league as the Watchmen. I say they are. See? Both can play this game.Difference between us is I actually provide videos to back up my claims. You have none. I say you're dodging. And it's really pointless to debate with you because you are unwilling to provide any proof of your claims. You're all talk.
You're clown. Plain and simple. You back down from my challenge of a BZ, and then claim I don't want to post feats and videos. Talk about an absolute joke. The saying most appropriate here is, pot meet kettle.
I'm perfectly willing to post videos of Legolas being superior in skill/agility/Finesse in executing his moves. That is Legolas personified. I called you to a BZ to prove you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, to expose your bias, so we have judges to declare a winner, and so your failed misrepresentation of my arguments are held against you. That is why I don't want to waste my time posting stuff here.. just so you could turn around and misrepresent my argument, tuck tail and dodge questions and feats? Sorry but that is an exercise in futility with you. If you didn't do all of the above throughout the thread, I'd be more willing to just post scans. Seeing as you did the things I mentioned, I'd rather just directly challenge you with judges, and that way your tactics are held against you. Simple. Yet somehow I don't want to post feats LMAO. Hilarious. It's examples like this where you lose credibility in my book. If I'm opening challenging to a BZ where we have to post feats and videos, how on God's green earth can someone turn around and go... see... see... you won't post videos to back up your claim. That is exactly why it's a waste of time with you.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're clown. Plain and simple. You back down from my challenge of a BZ, and then claim I don't want to post feats and videos. Talk about an absolute joke. The saying most appropriate here is, pot meet kettle.I'm perfectly willing to post videos of Legolas being superior in skill/agility/Finesse in executing his moves. That is Legolas personified. I called you to a BZ to prove you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, to expose your bias, so we have judges to declare a winner, and so your failed misrepresentation of my arguments are held against you. That is why I don't want to waste my time posting stuff here.. just so you could turn around and misrepresent my argument, tuck tail and dodge questions and feats? Sorry but that is an exercise in futility with you. If you didn't do all of the above throughout the thread, I'd be more willing to just post scans. Seeing as you did the things I mentioned, I'd rather just directly challenge you with judges, and that way your tactics are held against you. Simple. Yet somehow I don't want to post feats LMAO. Hilarious. It's examples like this where you lose credibility in my book. If I'm opening challenging to a BZ where we have to post feats and videos, how on God's green earth can someone turn around and go... see... see... you won't post videos to back up your claim. That is exactly why it's a waste of time with you.
Tell you what. Post videos of Elektra and Legolas doing better acrobatics than Cap (keyword: better) and I'll take you up on your BZ challenge.
Originally posted by carthage
Lol @ Rorschach and Nite Owl being more capable than Ultron and Loki in combat. Cap was able to chuck Ultron into a concrete Pylon, how are either of those two replicating that feat?
Another reading comprehension for the loss. I never once said they were above those 2. Not once. I said those fights don't apply because Cap didn't win them, nor was he any type of thread to them. They were non fights. So they have no relevance. We're comparing the similar style of people they fought
1. Multiple foes - Ozy and easily. I got a clownshoes trying to tell me Shield Agents are just as skilled and formidable as N.O. and RO. That is blatantly false, and again, if anybody wants to take up that challenge you know where to find me. That'll be an easy win.
2. Peak-Human skilled dudes - again Ozy shows superiority
3. Superhuman esque type dudes. This is tougher to call. WS is above N.O. and RO individually I'd reckon. I'm okay with that. But combined they are very comparable i.e. N.O and RO together are very comparable formidability wise to WS by himself. However, lets' say WS is still slightly better than both. Well then we would use a logical line of progression. That whole logic thing again
Ozy - Against a combined team near the level of WS alone skill wise. Ozy effortlessly, and like a stroll in the park, beat them up and didn't get one blow landed on him. Not one.
Cap - Fought a slightly better foe, but it wasn't two foes, and he had his shield. Ozy had no shield, no weapon. Yet, Cap struggled and it was a long drawn out fight. The ease in which Ozy beat comparable dudes in the ballpark is the key. If he did it that easy and without a blow landed. Why wouldn't he be able to beat somebody slightly above them combined (which again is debatable he's even above them combined) Why would we think he'd struggle with that? ? That defies common sense. I could still envision him doing things casually as well, but let's say he ramps it up... I mean honestly, imagine him ramping it up... he'd have very little issue with WS, if he could beat those 2 so easily
BTW, Comedian is based on a comic book character that poops all over WS when it comes to comics and feats. He destroys him. Granted this isn't a comic book forum, but the comedian is elite. Ozy handled him as if he were nothing. Again, easily. That's the difference
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Another reading comprehension for the loss. I never once said they were above those 2. Not once. I said those fights don't apply because Cap didn't win them, nor was he any type of thread to them. They were non fights. So they have no relevance. We're comparing the similar style of people they fought1. Multiple foes - Ozy and easily. I got a clownshoes trying to tell me Shield Agents are just as skilled and formidable as N.O. and RO. That is blatantly false, and again, if anybody wants to take up that challenge you know where to find me. That'll be an easy win.
2. Peak-Human skilled dudes - again Ozy shows superiority
3. Superhuman esque type dudes. This is tougher to call. WS is above N.O. and RO individually I'd reckon. I'm okay with that. But combined they are very comparable i.e. N.O and RO together are very comparable formidability wise to WS by himself. However, lets' say WS is still slightly better than both. Well then we would use a logical line of progression. That whole logic thing again
Ozy - Against a combined team near the level of WS alone skill wise. Ozy effortlessly, and like a stroll in the park, beat them up and didn't get one blow landed on him. Not one.
Cap - Fought a slightly better foe, but it wasn't two foes, and he had his shield. Ozy had no shield, no weapon. Yet, Cap struggled and it was a long drawn out fight. The ease in which Ozy beat comparable dudes in the ballpark is the key. If he did it that easy and without a blow landed. Why wouldn't he be able to beat somebody slightly above them combined (which again is debatable he's even above them combined) Why would we think he'd struggle with that? ? That defies common sense. I could still envision him doing things casually as well, but let's say he ramps it up... I mean honestly, imagine him ramping it up... he'd have very little issue with WS, if he could beat those 2 so easily
BTW, Comedian is based on a comic book character that poops all over WS when it comes to comics and feats. He destroys him. Granted this isn't a comic book forum, but the comedian is elite. Ozy handled him as if he were nothing. Again, easily. That's the difference
As usual... words. Not a single shred of proof or feats to back up your words.
Originally posted by FrothByte
As usual... words. Not a single shred of proof or feats to back up your words.
The words aren't even accurate, as Cap has the better feats vs multiple people, seeing as Ozy has zero feats on the level of beating 10 skilled combatants in close quarters, especially when they are armed with tazers and magnetic cuffs.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Tell you what. Post videos of Elektra and Legolas doing better acrobatics than Cap (keyword: better) and I'll take you up on your BZ challenge.
Nice try, why not just take up the challenge? We're talking about Legolas here, that is my open challenge to you. I'm not posting a thing. Either put up or shut up. Elektra wasn't talked about for a BZ so I don't know why you bring her up.
Again, misrepresenting what I'm saying. I specifically said, acrobatics in movies are designed to show elite skill. WHICH FOR THE 1000th time I'm talking about. It's not just a matter of flipping around and doing nothing with it. It's about using agility, acrobatics and skill to defeat your foe. When discussing this, as I've said over and over, what I'm referring to is Elektra and Legolas use their skill most often to defeat their foes. Cap does not. When somebody uses more skill to defeat their foes, while another uses flashes of skill, but more brute force... Once simply looks more skilled and is likely more skilled. That doesn't mean Cap isn't skilled. The whole point is, those guys USE the skill to win fights more times than not, Cap does not. If you'd like, as I said to VD, we can go through each time Cap has put someone down.. and whether it was via some flashy skilled move or just via basic punches and kicks. We can count them. As VD said, sure Cap does it more with punches and kicks than flashy maneuvers but he still has skill. Don't disagree. My contention is, the characters I named showcase their skill more and that is how they win the majority of their encounters. That was the point I was making.
It's like this, and what I'm referring to:
When you watch Crouching Tiger hidden dragon, or Hero or Pai Mei and you see dudes flying all over the place and doing crazy moves.
Do you not sit there in that movie and go, damn those guys are badass if they can pull off all these crazy maneuvers? Are you more likely to go wow over those moves or a dude who's punching people and they go down? Which impresses you more?
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Nice try, why not just take up the challenge? We're talking about Legolas here, that is my open challenge to you. I'm not posting a thing. Either put up or shut up. Elektra wasn't talked about for a BZ so I don't know why you bring her up.Again, misrepresenting what I'm saying. I specifically said, acrobatics in movies are designed to show elite skill. WHICH FOR THE 1000th time I'm talking about. It's not just a matter of flipping around and doing nothing with it. It's about using agility, acrobatics and skill to defeat your foe. When discussing this, as I've said over and over, what I'm referring to is Elektra and Legolas use their skill most often to defeat their foes. Cap does not. When somebody uses more skill to defeat their foes, while another uses flashes of skill, but more brute force... Once simply looks more skilled and is likely more skilled. That doesn't mean Cap isn't skilled. The whole point is, those guys USE the skill to win fights more times than not, Cap does not. If you'd like, as I said to VD, we can go through each time Cap has put someone down.. and whether it was via some flashy skilled move or just via basic punches and kicks. We can count them. As VD said, sure Cap does it more with punches and kicks than flashy maneuvers but he still has skill. Don't disagree. My contention is, the characters I named showcase their skill more and that is how they win the majority of their encounters. That was the point I was making.
It's like this, and what I'm referring to:
When you watch Crouching Tiger hidden dragon, or Hero or Pai Mei and you see dudes flying all over the place and doing crazy moves.
Do you not sit there in that movie and go, damn those guys are badass if they can pull off all these crazy maneuvers? Are you more likely to go wow over those moves or a dude who's punching people and they go down? Which impresses you more?
Fine. Go ahead and open your BZ. Legolas vs. Captain America - who has better acrobatics. Not agility, not nimbleness, not finesse. Acrobatics.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerKt is a damn fool. I'm glad other posters have finally seen right through his giant walls of text without a single shred of evidence to back his shit up. Sad.
Yeah, you "clarified" after being called out. You never said anything about "main arsenal", or compared him directly to those people you just listed, when you made the claim. You said Cap isn't doing elaborate moves, kicks or kicks while flipping. Trying to cover it up with later posts doesn't change that.