Aquaman, Namor vs Black Adam

Originally posted by RadZoa

It's an older scan, I believe in one JSA comic Jay told Mr Terrific that only Wally can run that fast because running faster than light would risk losing himself in the speed force

Post Flash Rebirth (I think) Jay could run around light speed or just a bit under but he would risk having a heart attack if he kept it up for long. He's probably around the same level as Northstar ei 99% but can't sustain it, although more experienced and has speed force abilities like speed stealing and ridiculous durability to where he can shrug off being punched across the US by Zoom.

Here's a bio scan stating that Jay was able to run at light speed but has slowed down a bit due to age

Appreciate it man this is all new to me, suggest though Jay was capable of doing so at a younger age.

Beatboks is the guy to go to for Jay feats, as well 👆

Check the Battlezone out, it has some nice feats for Jay.

Aye, although he's still ridiculously fast in his older age he's def slowed down as he got older

Here's some more scans on Jay,

Hours and minutes feel like years to him

He's able to converse with Flash and Kid Flash in nanoseconds.

or feel free to scroll through my bz with scoob. gathered tons of jay stuff..... he's got some great feats.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Well....it turns a decrepit 1000 year old man into a guy capable of throwing down with Ultraman. This is of course, physically - but to then say the physical powers are herald level, and his magical powers are street level, is a bit weird.

He physically overpowered him, showing he has great strength, and the speedster feat was to show he had good reflexes.

But then, PIS comes into play - especially if you start using ABC logic.

Aquaman charged WW = Aquaman is faster than WW.
GL has tagged WW = GL is faster than WW
Batman has stolen GL's ring = Batman is faster than GL who is faster than WW who is faster than Supergirl.

See how it all breaks down? You've been using Frankenstein, and WW, and Supergirl, all as proxies for Aquaman's speed - when we all have seen them perform at less than 100%.

He has used it in 25% of his appearances. In ANY other character, that would be amazing.

And same again here - using Sinestro and Lobo as proxies for BA.

And did he overpower Hercules?

And did J'onn display any of this when fighting Aquaman?

So you think Aquaman could pull Brainiac's ship as well? Or push the moon like Ultraman? Etc etc. [/B]

The way powers work is that they have to have feats doing something. You can't suggest because Flash can't beat up class 100 characters with an IMP or phasing that other forms of his attack are just as powerful it's pretty baseless. Heat Vision isn't as powerful as Frost Breath or visa versa without the feats to suggest so. It's baseless to suggest his lightning can harm a character because it hurt human fodder and the character using the attack is a class 100. You also can't compare 2 different characters using lightning or electrical attacks.. by that logic Electro is just as powerful as Thor.. voltage and destructive capabilities are different. Same with 2 different characters using heat vision or any form of attack being done by two different characters.

I brought up a bunch of scans in reference to Aquaman's speed and reflex.

Your comparing skills are a bit ridiculous... Batman took a ring off Hal when they were talking and walking around a sewer show me a scan of Batman taking off GL's ring when Green Lantern is in a offensive standpoint against Batman.

Whereas my Wonder Woman instance is Wonder Woman actually acting upon Arthur first and Arthur reacting

My Superman instance is after the fact The Trinity attacked Aquaman specifically Batman and Aquaman was at a distance from them charging to hit Superman.

Whereas Batman and Hal were right next to each other face to face talking.

Did I suggest he was faster then Wonder Woman or Superman? If so show me where what I'm stating was he showed he was fast enough to hit Superman before a reaction and fast enough to react to Wonder Woman trying to lasso him.

Also Wonder Woman stomped Hal the only time he got any hits in was when Superman distracted Diana other then that he's was sent flying twice, blood drawn from him and didn't get any hits in without aid.

Aquaman fought Wonder Woman in Aquaman Annual 2 after the GOW upgrade and did better then Hal.

So your examples don't really break down well.

J'onn physically shapeshifted his size when he was fighting Aquaman and has been shown and said to be stronger when doing so in previous comics.

Aquaman was showing restraint against Hercules and didn't have his trident when he got rejuvenated with water to get back into the fight he started stomping Hercules sending him across an island and then meeting up with him in the next panel.

Originally posted by RadZoa
Aye, although he's still ridiculously fast in his older age he's def slowed down as he got older

Here's some more scans on Jay,

Hours and minutes feel like years to him

He's able to converse with Flash and Kid Flash in nanoseconds.

Wouldn't this be considered ABC logic if we use this based on the previous user?

Regardless Aquaman's reacted to a running Barry and kept up with a running Wally as well as percieved thr movements of a Wally clone suggesting those are invalid and Adam's/Teth feat is would kinda be a bit biast, wouldn't it?

Originally posted by Surtur
Normal lightning doesn't turn you to stone so talking about feats that aren't with mystical "turn you to stone" lightning are irrelevant. As for the rest nothing you said suggests Namor could resist magical transmutation. I don't even understand the relevance of you mentioning the magic trident unless it has protected him from magical spells in the past. Has it?

Also frankly the "Dr. Strange mystically attacked him and it KOed Dr. Strange" seems..well, strange. What does this mean? Was it a magical energy blast that bounced off Namor? Was this Classic Strange? Jobber Strange? Was this some kind of transmutation spell that failed?

I am not the one to prove anything, you are the one to show if BA's magic can affect one who is several hundred times more powerful than an average human in every way. Good luck with that

A magical trident can be used to block the lightening attack coming out from BA's chest, and one hit from that trident will end adam will end adam

You are heavily overhyping a power used a on an average human. Where was this power when he faced ultraman? or everyone else? Surely with so few appearances, the 'writer forgot his power' excuse won't work

Originally posted by Genii96
Like I said,I meant normal lightning attacks
- Namor's blood is a powerful magical ingredient, atlantean magic flows through him, he is not on the same level as some random fodder human whom black adam's magic worked against. Does it matter which strange? Strange utterly shits on BA on term of magical strength
Namor resisted his magical attacks so hard that the mystical back lash KO'd him,

I am not the one to prove anything, you are the one to show if BA's magic can affect one who is several hundred times more powerful than an average human in every way. Good luck with that

A magical trident can be used to block the lightening attack coming out from BA's chest, and one hit from that trident will end adam will end adam

You are heavily overhyping a power used a on an average human. Where was this power when he faced ultraman? or everyone else? Surely with so few appearances, the 'writer forgot his power' excuse won't work

The thing that makes the power questionable in the fight is its not really used other then that one instance so I'm questioning the context behind its usage.

Fighting Ultraman really has no merit since he lost pretty bad unless getting beat up by characters are now being used as feats or they're highly considered on this site.

A character pushing a star or moon is irrelevant if they're shown to be able to fight characters capable of doing so. Superman has pushed heavy objects in the New52 yet Wonder Woman hasn't really moved worlds yet in every instance they fought in the New52 it was on par. Shazam doesn't have these world moving feats and didn't get KO'd or dead after being hit by Superman. After his you haven't seen me yet statement.

Aquaman's trident would definitely harm Teth. http://m.imgur.com/a/XWUnj

Namor resisting The Eye of Aggamatto sounds impressive.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
The way powers work is that they have to have feats doing something. You can't suggest because Flash can't beat up class 100 characters with an IMP or phasing that other forms of his attack are just as powerful it's pretty baseless. Heat Vision isn't as powerful as Frost Breath or visa versa without the feats to suggest so. It's baseless to suggest his lightning can harm a character because it hurt human fodder and the character using the attack is a class 100. You also can't compare 2 different characters using lightning or electrical attacks.. by that logic Electro is just as powerful as Thor.. voltage and destructive capabilities are different. Same with 2 different characters using heat vision or any form of attack being done by two different characters.

This would be true...if the very same scan didn't explicitly said that BA was given power by the gods to avenge his family...power both physical and magical.

To then turn around and say, well, the gods that gave him great speed, strength, stamina etc...skimped on his magical ability. THAT is what I a m having issues with.

Your comparing skills are a bit ridiculous... Batman took a ring off Hal when they were talking and walking around a sewer show me a scan of Batman taking off GL's ring when Green Lantern is in a offensive standpoint against Batman.

Whereas my Wonder Woman instance is Wonder Woman actually acting upon Arthur first and Arthur reacting

She succeeded in getting the lasso around him. And rather than command him to yield, she just kept on talking. Hardly the speed feat you're making it out to be - when she actually succeeds in lassoing him.

My Superman instance is after the fact The Trinity attacked Aquaman specifically Batman and Aquaman was at a distance from them charging to hit Superman.

Did I suggest he was faster then Wonder Woman or Superman? If so show me where what I'm stating was he showed he was fast enough to hit Superman before a reaction and fast enough to react to Wonder Woman trying to lasso him.

Also Wonder Woman stomped Hal the only time he got any hits in was when Superman distracted Diana other then that he's was sent flying twice, blood drawn from him and didn't get any hits in without aid.

So your examples don't really break down well.

J'onn physically shapeshifted his size when he was fighting Aquaman and has been shown and said to be stronger when doing so in previous comics.

Aquaman was showing restraint against Hercules and didn't have his trident when he got rejuvenated with water to get back into the fight he started stomping Hercules sending him across an island and then meeting up with him in the next panel.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
The thing that makes the power questionable in the fight is its not really used other then that one instance so I'm questioning the context behind its usage.

Fighting Ultraman really has no merit since he lost pretty bad unless getting beat up by characters are now being used as feats or they're highly considered on this site.

A character pushing a star or moon is irrelevant if they're shown to be able to fight characters capable of doing so. Superman has pushed heavy objects in the New52 yet Wonder Woman hasn't really moved worlds yet in every instance they fought in the New52 it was on par. Shazam doesn't have these world moving feats and didn't get KO'd or dead after being hit by Superman. After his you haven't seen me yet statement.

Aquaman's trident would definitely harm Teth. http://m.imgur.com/a/XWUnj

Namor resisting The Eye of Aggamatto sounds impressive.

You are saying exactly my point,it has been used once,on an average human,it should not be hyped this much

I don't think strange used agamotto's eye when namor resisted him

Originally posted by Genii96
Like I said,I meant normal lightning attacks
- Namor's blood is a powerful magical ingredient, atlantean magic flows through him, he is not on the same level as some random fodder human whom black adam's magic worked against. Does it matter which strange? Strange utterly shits on BA on term of magical strength
Namor resisted his magical attacks so hard that the mystical back lash KO'd him,

I am not the one to prove anything, you are the one to show if BA's magic can affect one who is several hundred times more powerful than an average human in every way. Good luck with that

A magical trident can be used to block the lightening attack coming out from BA's chest, and one hit from that trident will end adam will end adam

You are heavily overhyping a power used a on an average human. Where was this power when he faced ultraman? or everyone else? Surely with so few appearances, the 'writer forgot his power' excuse won't work

How many times has Namor been immune/resistant to magical attacks? Out of his 100s of appearances. Surely you can post more than...one instance??

And it was a psychic backlash that Namor gave. Not a mystical backlash. His struggling caused Strange to black out, and the spell was undone. NOT because he actually broke the Crimson Bands himself.

The trident will block it? I've shown it targeting targets, rather than being a straight laser blast.

Of course it can still work. Different writers, after all. Thankfully, in battle threads, all powers are available.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

This would be true...if the very same scan didn't explicitly said that BA was given power by the gods to avenge his family...power both physical and magical.

To then turn around and say, well, the gods that gave him great speed, strength, stamina etc...skimped on his magical ability. THAT is what I a m having issues with.

So Batman is able to outreact a GL and it's automatic capabilities? OK.

https://comicnewbies.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/aquaman-vs-wonder-woman-1-throne-of-atlantis.jpg

She succeeded in getting the lasso around him. And rather than command him to yield, she just kept on talking. Hardly the speed feat you're making it out to be - when she actually succeeds in lassoing him.

Surely if he is, as you're saying, fast enough to hit Supes BEFORE a reaction...you're saying he's faster?

He still managed to bubble her up, and then grab her. My point is, she has showings where she isn't too fast to be untouchable.

It's to show not every showing a character has is at 100% full speed/strength.

But....he didn't restrain him with his superior strength, right? [/B]

You'd have to show what these Gods are capable of in the same comic Universe. It seems like atleast to me your trying to imply he's all powerful because he was given powers by featless Gods.

No she doesn't have the lasso fully on him if that was true he wouldn't be holding the lasso with one hand preventing it from in wrapping his neck.

http://imgur.com/5Ga3qVy
Based on the scans he's not entangled at all.

I don't get where your getting the idea I'm stating Batman can outreact Hal or your trying to suggest one instance of a character at a distance is comparable to a character up close and talking to each other. To my understanding Hal has to have it on auto defensive features and what auto defensive showings does he have at that point in time does he even have any in the New52 or are we assuming Pre52 ring = New52 ring? Because that's fallible logic as well.

Nope what I'm suggesting is he was fast enough to hit Superman before reacting. It's me stating it as a a speed showing which is pretty valid. I'm assuming your not suggest Teth is faster then Jay because he was able to tag him just that he was able to tag him? That's my point with the Superman instance.
http://imgur.com/GHLeATf

Your suggest Hal putting Wonder Woman in a bubble when not even focused on him at that moment is a valid showing for Hal but all of the stuff I suggested is inconsiderable...

I'd suggest to read that fight again cause this is really seeming double standarded..
http://comicnewbies.com/2014/08/18/wonder-woman-vs-green-lantern/

He held Martian Manhunter in a grapple who got out of it with Shape-shifting and held Hercules in a grapple who got out of it by ramming him into a mountain behind them it's not like they physically out muscled him.

To your not every character uses 100% Power statement why are we claiming Adam is faster then Aquaman with one showing of speed not even a current continuity one to my Multiple post showing several or naming several in both the current and last continuity.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
You'd have to show what these Gods are capable of in the same comic Universe. It seems like atleast to me your trying to imply he's all powerful because he was given powers by featless Gods.

We know he has the speed to blitz Ultraman, all the way from Khandaq.

We know he has the strength to tussle, and the durability (whilst he then got his jaw crushed like a feeb, he did better than say, Batman would, for example).

SHAZAM.

Shu
Heru
Amon
Zehuti
Aton
Mehen

You're saying, essentially, that for some reason, Shu, Heru, Amon, Zehuti and Mehen are incredibly powerful (capable of turning a normal human into BA) BUT Aton is lacking.

That argument is like saying well, I have XYZ feats of Hulk/Superman punching, but none of them kicking - therefore, Hulk/Superman have disproportionately weak kicks.

Or something equally strange.

No she doesn't have the lasso fully on him if that was true he wouldn't be holding the lasso with one hand preventing it from in wrapping his neck.

http://imgur.com/5Ga3qVy
Based on the scans he's not entangled at all.

I don't get where your getting the idea I'm stating Batman can outreact Hal or your trying to suggest one instance of a character at a distance is comparable to a character up close and talking to each other. To my understanding Hal has to have it on auto defensive features and what auto defensive showings does he have at that point in time does he even have any in the New52 or are we assuming Pre52 ring = New52 ring? Because that's fallible logic as well.

Nope what I'm suggesting is he was fast enough to hit Superman before reacting. It's me stating it as a a speed showing which is pretty valid. I'm assuming your not suggest Teth is faster then Jay because he was able to tag him just that he was able to tag him? That's my point with the Superman instance.
http://imgur.com/GHLeATf

Your suggest Hal putting Wonder Woman in a bubble when not even focused on him at that moment is a valid showing for Hal but all of the stuff I suggested is inconsiderable...

I'd suggest to read that fight again cause this is really seeming double standarded..
http://comicnewbies.com/2014/08/18/wonder-woman-vs-green-lantern/

He held Martian Manhunter in a grapple who got out of it with Shape-shifting and held Hercules in a grapple who got out of it by ramming him into a mountain behind them it's not like they physically out muscled him.

To your not every character uses 100% Power statement why are we claiming Adam is faster then Aquaman with one showing of speed not even a current continuity one to my Multiple post showing several or naming several in both the current and last continuity.

Also, welcome to the forum - good to see you posting links 😛

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How many times has Namor been immune/resistant to magical attacks? Out of his 100s of appearances. Surely you can post more than...one instance??

And it was a psychic backlash that Namor gave. Not a mystical backlash. His struggling caused Strange to black out, and the spell was undone. NOT because he actually broke the Crimson Bands himself.

The trident will block it? I've shown it targeting targets, rather than being a straight laser blast.

Of course it can still work. Different writers, after all. Thankfully, in battle threads, all powers are available.

No one is immune to magical attacks

How many times has namor been shown to resist magic? Against strange and sorcerer khan,who put namor,doom,some ships and a freak load of ocean into a small bottle( which namor broke free of)

Um,namor broke the bands of cytorrak,breaking it caused strange to pass out ,there was no mention of the backlash being 'psychic'
http://puu.sh/iEMpa/d2a0df7345.png
Strange blatantly said that namor was struggling with the bands of cytorrak,and the backlash of that was what he felt,and it was apparently so strong he wouldn't have believed it had he not felt it, then he goes to his body to strenghten the spell,namor still breaks free,then he passes out. Namor broke the bands,and unless struggling against the bands gave of 'psychic' backlashes,I am pretty sure the backlshes were magical.

Sorcerer khan also faced namor
http://i.imgur.com/HayIA2B.png
Right after namor breaks through what he magically trapped them in,namor charges him,foghts him and rips his head off

Ofcourse,he also resists nekkron magical energy/lightning attack enough to get his trident,which then allows him turn the tide on nekkron
http://i.imgur.com/8xrXdzi.png

It dosent matter if it 'targets' namor, an enchanted magical trident made by Poseidon will block a magical attack from Adam,and If the lightning attack is simply a lightning attack,not one like the transmutation own,he dosent even need a trident.

Yea,all powers are allowed, too bad namor isn't a normal human.

Originally posted by Genii96
No one is immune to magical attacks

How many times has namor been shown to resist magic? Against strange and sorcerer khan,who put namor,doom,some ships and a freak load of ocean into a small bottle( which namor broke free of)

Um,namor broke the bands of cytorrak,breaking it caused strange to pass out ,there was no mention of the backlash being 'psychic'
http://puu.sh/iEMpa/d2a0df7345.png
Strange blatantly said that namor was struggling with the bands of cytorrak,and the backlash of that was what he felt,and it was apparently so strong he wouldn't have believed it had he not felt it, then he goes to his body to strenghten the spell,namor still breaks free,then he passes out. Namor broke the bands,and unless struggling against the bands gave of 'psychic' backlashes,I am pretty sure the backlshes were magical.

Sorcerer khan also faced namor
http://i.imgur.com/HayIA2B.png
Right after namor breaks through what he magically trapped them in,namor charges him,foghts him and rips his head off

Ofcourse,he also resists nekkron magical energy/lightning attack enough to get his trident,which then allows him turn the tide on nekkron
http://i.imgur.com/8xrXdzi.png

It dosent matter if it 'targets' namor, an enchanted magical trident made by Poseidon will block a magical attack from Adam,and If the lightning attack is simply a lightning attack,not one like the transmutation own,he dosent even need a trident.

Yea,all powers are allowed, too bad namor isn't a normal human.

You missed the first page of the scan, where Strange specifically says its a psychic backlash, and that he cannot withstand another such attack:

Not showing on my phone,can you link it?.....dosent really matter,nnamor broke the bands himself,THAT KO'd strange

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

We know he has the speed to blitz Ultraman, all the way from Khandaq.

We know he has the strength to tussle, and the durability (whilst he then got his jaw crushed like a feeb, he did better than say, Batman would, for example).

SHAZAM.

Shu
Heru
Amon
Zehuti
Aton
Mehen

You're saying, essentially, that for some reason, Shu, Heru, Amon, Zehuti and Mehen are incredibly powerful (capable of turning a normal human into BA) BUT Aton is lacking.

That argument is like saying well, I have XYZ feats of Hulk/Superman punching, but none of them kicking - therefore, Hulk/Superman have disproportionately weak kicks.

Or something equally strange.

You can see it wrapped tight around his neck (second panel). He's then trying to pull it off (4th panel) but a strand is still around him.

Pre 52 Hal = New 52. Canon. Confirmed multiple times. Hal even remembers that he was once Parallax etc.

So is he faster than Supes? If you're saying he's fast enough to hit Supes before he could react, that's...being faster, surely.

Not double standards. Am saying that WW obv does not always have EVERY fight at her operating at full capacity. I mean, Batman whilst injured and without his Batsuit has taken punches from a bloodlusted WW before...

And he didn't out muscle them either.

I never used those scans. Others did. I was merely stating that he has speed, plus the willingness to use it, plus the tools (his magical lightning). [/B]

There's no statement saying that Pre52 Hal equals New52 Hal what I believe was said was some Pre52 stories happened in some form or another in the New52 in order to keep the stuff Johns built in the GL mythos.

They suggested Death of Superman happened and we see how that turned out in the New52 compared to the Pre52 timelines. Stories happening in one continuity to another doesn't mean feats are translated as well.

Even if that was the case that would Pre52 Hal Jordan inferior to Wonder Woman as well before the GOW upgrade.

He's holding it he's not trying to pull it off. From the angle it's on in the second panel you can't honestly suggest it's tied around his neck for all we know it's as loose as it was on the first panel. The 4th panel just shows him holding the rope. Its irrelevant anyways cause the point that Wonder Woman acted first and Aquaman reacted accordingly still stands. He acted and charged her after she already went at him in a way.

It's funny that Wonder Woman doesn't operate at full capacity in every fight I think the fact that her and Aquaman were shown fighting against each other again in Aquaman Annual to under mind tampering suggest she's not holding back in that instance so it refutes the idea that she was in Throne of Atlantis. In Aquaman Annual 2 she pretty much suggest how she'd act and what she'd do if Aquaman was invading the surface which seemed to be a fear of hers. It's funny to think the Trinity were holding back when they were the ones who confronted Arthur and they acted first.

I was responding to the claims that Adam is massively faster then Arthur which I find false in regards to anyone stating it solely on the Jay scan.

The Wizard gave Black Adam that power due to his bravery those Gods didn't sure he has the abilities of those gods but like I said it was the Wizard who made Adam his champion. Also yes we can't assume something is powerful because it's the power of a God or Gods without any showing of the capabilities or atleast any statement of what it's capable of doing. That's making assumptions with nothing to support it other then they must be strong their Gods.

http://media.insidepulse.com/zones/insidepulse/uploads/2013/10/Justice-League-of-America-8-Preview-Spoilers-art-5.jpg
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11125/111252882/4896499-wwaquaman5.jpg

Anyways thanks I look forward to posting more.

As much as I think Aquaman is a lot closer to Adam strength wise than some might realise, I still don't think he's quick enough to stop Adam if Adam uses his speed.

Originally posted by -Pr-
As much as I think Aquaman is a lot closer to Adam strength wise than some might realise, I still don't think he's quick enough to stop Adam if Adam uses his speed.

I really don't get the speed issue in all honesty the only thing brought up is the Jay Garrick thing as of now and to discredit stuff I mentioned the characters in the scans at the time werent using their full speed capabilities yet Jay is in the one scan.

Faster on land

http://imgur.com/a/vPvnu

Suprsises a running Barry Allen

http://i.imgur.com/BUkMAOm.jpg

Reflexively forms a fist at a running Barry Allen

http://imgur.com/yVCId3m

Notices a Wally clone's movements while engaged in his own fight

http://i.imgur.com/oap7u7w.jpg

Keeping up with Speedsters

http://imgur.com/a/ipe99

Dodges a blow from Timmorn

http://imgur.com/PLIZk1k

Takes from this thread.
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/aquaman-189/arthur-curry-aka-aquaman-composite-respect-thread-1774986/