Most influential characters in the mythos

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm not Neph, being much smarter, handsomer and more successful, but didn't Plagueis pull a lot of strings to get Palpatine elected Chancellor and connected with the future Separatist leaders in the first place? Plagueis himself leveraged a lot of connections from his master. He also worked with Palpatine to unbalance the Force towards the dark side, which can probably explain a lot of Palpatine's success in finding apprentices, shrouding the Jedi's vision, etc.

Indeed, Palpatine does owe credit to Plagueis for recruiting him and training him in the first place, while Vitiate was basically self-taught, and while he did absorb all of those Sith Lords in the Nathema ritual, it was his machinery to get them to participate in the ritual in the first place.

Aside from that, the primary benefit of those thousand years was the steady power creep from trash-tier (Bane) to >Yoda-tier (Sidious), but that's an advantage intrinsic to Palpatine's potential and so not something that can be separated from him.

Disclaimer: Vitiate still sucks

Nyriss's account of Vitiate's origins said that he returned to his studies once he presented himself to Ragnos, who anointed Vitiate ruler of Nathema. With his position "officially recognized," he researched the dark side for a century. The notion that his studies were completely divorced of the extant empire's resources is unattested.

He killed his dad and assumed rulership of an entire planet and had the patronage of the reigning Lord of the Sith.

That's not exactly roughing it.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nyriss's account of Vitiate's origins said that he returned to his studies once he presented himself to Ragnos, who anointed Vitiate ruler of Nathema. With his position "officially recognized," he researched the dark side for a century. The notion that his studies were completely divorced of the extant empire's resources is unattested.

Correct, I said that he was self-taught, which does not preclude reading. But Palpatine needed Plagueis's personal instruction, although to be fair, this was long after the Sith were done as a public organization, so it's not like he could look up Force techniques on the holonet.

He killed his dad and assumed rulership of an entire planet and had the patronage of the reigning Lord of the Sith.

That's not exactly roughing it.

He didn't really need Ragnos to do any of that though. He was already in control of Nathema by that point, and presumably already had access to books; getting the title Vitiate didn't seem to do much except maybe boost his reputation and make contenders to his power less credible.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yeah, it's the other one that doesn't count as a "galactic empire". 😬

Are you guys blind? The other one.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah. It just so happens that Sheev nabs both trophies.

Sheev orchestrated the biggest war in galactic history, arranged for the ascent of both belligerents (the two largest militaries in history at the time), and destroyed the Jedi and the Republic. He ruled the Galaxy from the head of history's most powerful regime. He threatened the balance of the Force in an unprecedented way. Then he subjugated the Galaxy a second time after his reincarnation. And he accomplished all that in the span of a human lifetime. That's significantly greater than what Valkorion achieved tbh.

Neph's claims that Sheev benefitted from a thousand years of the Rule of Two have yet to be proven.

Palpatine had his moment but credit goes to Darth Plagueis for setting the stage of his ascendancy.

Valkorion have history of bringing the Republic, the Jedi Order and even the Sith to their knees. He is responsible for orchestrating several Galactic Wars and deaths of countless individuals. He created two superpowers and both of them managed to rule the Galaxy for decades (something that Palpatine would never have).

Hardly. Given his position and certainly the time he had to do things, Palpatine managed much more than Vitiate did. And note that the entire Banite line setup was shorter than the setup Vitiate had up to the Great Galactic War by a good four hundred years.

They were doing completely different things. The Banites were just biding their time and treading carefully for those years while Vitiate was rebuilding a civilization from scratch (plus Zakuul). One it obviously more time consuming and dependent than the other. It's also notable that Vitiates end goal wasn't conquest in the first place.

Still, Vitiate was far more influential. His manipulations in Kotor are easily on par with Sheev's CW shenanigans in terms of effects and he was leading two empires at the same time as that for a millennium.

If only Vitiate was remembered for these achievements. Also, their enemies were pretty much the same. Their circumstances were different, sure - Vitiate was rebuilding a civilization, Palpatine was controlling and converting one from within. The difference is, in almost one and a half thousand years, Vitiate couldn't bring down the Jedi Order, whereas Palpatine did it in less than forty-five years.

Also, Vitiate's "goals" keep changing. It seems like he was ready to consume the galaxy with a ritual in vanilla TOR, then it changed to running another Empire once that failed.

Vitiate smashed the Jedi far more completely in the Kotor era, down to like 2 surviving, than Sidious did with his 100 odd Jedi who survived Order 66. 😬

Zakuul also subjugated the Jedi and the Sith at the same time.

Vitiate didn't have a hand in the Triumvirate's annihilation of the Jedi, nor the Exar Kun War, so no, he didn't bring them down to two - not even close. Notable Jedi from the CW era >>>>>> Notable Jedi from the KotOR era, too.

And Palpatine was far more involved in the Stark Hyperspace War etc. than Vitiate was in the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War. Palpatine brought the Jedi down/inflicted more casualties in much shorter conflicts, too.

Zakuul subjugated them after they were damaged from decades of war with each other, sure. How long did Zakuul have to build up its forces?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate didn't have a hand in the Triumvirate's annihilation of the Jedi, nor the Exar Kun War, so no, he didn't bring them down to two - not even close. Notable Jedi from the CW era >>>>>> Notable Jedi from the KotOR era, too.

And Palpatine was far more involved in the Stark Hyperspace War etc. than Vitiate was in the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War. Palpatine brought the Jedi down/inflicted more casualties in much shorter conflicts, too.

Zakuul subjugated them after they were damaged from decades of war with each other, sure. How long did Zakuul have to build up its forces?

Who orchestrated the Jedi Civil War? Valkorion.

Valkorion's plan was to ignite the leaking fuel and watch it burn down the entire building by itself. It was a brilliant move on his part.

Valkorion intended for the Republic and the Jedi Order to be destroyed before he would commence a major invasion. However, Revan and Meetra Surik prevented the demise of Republic and Jedi Order.

Therefore, Great Galactic War became an inevitable choice.

So what? Vitiate didn't have any hand in it. He basically sent Malak and Revan back, and everything else was their doing. The Triumvirate might have been born from the Jedi Civil War, but the lack of involvement or even knowledge of it on Vitiate's part means that it can't be credited to him.

What he intended and what he accomplished are two very different things.

Originally posted by SunRazer
So what? Vitiate didn't have any hand in it. He basically sent Malak and Revan back, and everything else was their doing. The Triumvirate might have been born from the Jedi Civil War, but the lack of involvement or even knowledge of it on Vitiate's part means that it can't be credited to him.

What he intended and what he accomplished are two very different things.

Who corrupted and motivated Mandalore the Ultimate to start a war with the Republic? Vitiate.

Who corrupted and motivated Revan and Malak to start another war with the Republic? Vitiate.

Yes, Revan and Malak began to act on their own accord at some point but they were doing exactly what Vitiate wanted them to do: to destroy the Republic and the Jedi Order.

The Triumvirate was the byproduct of the Vitiate's grand plan.

Residual effect, sure, but not one he accounted for or even knew about. For that matter, he didn't even know about the Jedi Civil War. Nor did he account for the Exar Kun War, so again, he isn't responsible for bringing down the Jedi Order to two people.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate didn't have a hand in the Triumvirate's annihilation of the Jedi, nor the Exar Kun War, so no, he didn't bring them down to two - not even close. Notable Jedi from the CW era >>>>>> Notable Jedi from the KotOR era, too.

And Palpatine was far more involved in the Stark Hyperspace War etc. than Vitiate was in the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War. Palpatine brought the Jedi down/inflicted more casualties in much shorter conflicts, too.

Zakuul subjugated them after they were damaged from decades of war with each other, sure. How long did Zakuul have to build up its forces?

I didn't mention the Exar Kun war, that was 40 years before Kotor iirc. The Triumvirate, Revan and Malak and the Mandalorians were all influenced by Vitiate. The Triumvirate were just extensions of the previous two conflicts, both of which Vitiate directly caused. And who cares, this is about influence not impressiveness. Though the Kotor Jedi are stated to be > the PT, kek.

The Stark Hyperspace War is utterly inconsequential in terms of scope compared to Vitiates wars. Surely that Vitiate caused far more influence with less interference is to be praised, not derided. Also Naw, the Kotor crisis brought the Jedi down to their lowest numbers ever in about a decade or something. Sidious couldn't match that in 2 decades of his influence. What a loser.

Decades of war that were caused by Vitiate. 🙂 And I'm not sure Zakuul bothered the build up tbh.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Residual effect, sure, but not one he accounted for or even knew about. For that matter, he didn't even know about the Jedi Civil War. Nor did he account for the Exar Kun War, so again, he isn't responsible for bringing down the Jedi Order to two people.

Moreover, I doubt that Vitiate would be unaware of the wars taking place in the galaxy at large.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I honestly, seriously, legitimately think that the benefits of what I mentioned are so blindingly ****ing obvious and are things that you know to be true that I am honestly, seriously and legitimately insulted that you are asking me to prove it.

Plagueis had a library of knowledge that obviously benefited Sidious, Bane and Zannah collected numerous holocrons and other sources that added to the RoT line and so did other RoT Sith. We also know they performed experiments by themselves and studied the Force independently. If you actually want to provide quotes for these things that you know are true the answer is no.

As detailed in RoT, Bane established a vast collection of spies and terrorist groups designed to destabalise the Republic. Which obviously he passed down to his successors and they built off of it. The benefits of this to Sidious is so ****ing obvious its mindblowing.

How and why the **** do you want me to prove that the Sith were shrouded in secrecy and that this was a benefit to Sidious? Like, honestly? You want me to draw you a picture? Because it would just be a circle with the words "You are a retard" in the middle. Again, this is just basic common sense. I don't know what you want me to do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
FYI, this is me [b]actually frustrated and annoyed. Take some ****ing notes. [/B]

^ For your discomfort; I'm thoughtful that way. Be sure to apply liberally!

Now, before you go and rupture yet another hemorrhoid, let's clear the air: no one denied that Sidious was formally trained in secrecy. But that's not proof the thousand years of prep that you apparently think is meaningful enough to undermine his own efforts.

See, the new Star Wars Fact File #19 states that not only were the Clone Wars "the final phase of a plan concocted and executed" by Darth Sidious, but it also goes on to say how little the previous Banites had to do with his efforts:

Palpatine threatened the balance of the Force, orchestrated the biggest and most pivotal war in history up til that date, destroyed the Jedi at their height, conquered the Republic, ruled the galaxy, and essentially conquered it a second time in Dark Empire. Most importantly, per a number of sources, he was intimately responsible for these affairs on micro and macro scales.

Valky only ever historically instigated. The Emperor divinely orchestrated.

Palpatine is unquestionably the more powerful, intelligent, efficient, handsome, well-endowed, successful, impressive, influential, and important figure. Even his cosmological influence is greater.

Which, again, is probably why he's almost always name-dropped more than anyone else whereas Valky is only ever a footnote.

Spoiler:
If he's even mentioned at all.

But don't let facts deter you, Neph. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've always enjoyed watching you writhe and wail, flailing in your dishonesty and double standards like a developmentally-challenged toddler in a bed of its own excrement.

Carry on, dear boy. Carry on.

Sidious being trained in secret isn't the boon I was referring to. Sidious being capable of operating in secrecy is an immense benefit to his plans, which I assumed was blatantly obvious given those plan. He benefited immeasurably from Bane moving the Order underground and his predecessors continuing in operating in the shadows.

I didn't say anything about Sidious' plan, I'm aware that he was largely the mastermind. All I said was that he gained a shitton of Force Knowledge from the efforts of previous RoT Sith and that the previous Sith had amassed large amounts of resources, influence and contacts that he could draw upon. Once again, swing and a miss on your part.

You didn't really respond to anything I said or even truly acknowledge the things that I mentioned. Proving that I was right in my initial suspicion that putting any effort into responding to you would be a waste of time, hence my frustration that you needled me into writing a lot of pointless words.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't mention the Exar Kun war, that was 40 years before Kotor iirc.

30 years, and it contributed to the damage the Jedi Order suffered prior to the Mandalorian Wars and JCW. I believe a source(s) state that the Jedi Order hadn't fully recovered from the Great Sith War before the Mandalorian Wars came along, and of course they hardly got a break before the JCW came along after that.

The Triumvirate, Revan and Malak and the Mandalorians were all influenced by Vitiate.

The Triumvirate was not influenced by Vitiate in any way, shape or form. They were around before Vitiate was conceived - Vitiate wasn't even aware of the JCW or its consequences. The Triumvirate was birthed because of Malachor, not Vitiate.

The Triumvirate were just extensions of the previous two conflicts, both of which Vitiate directly caused. And who cares, this is about influence not impressiveness.

Only Sion was. The rest of the Triumvirate was an extension of Malachor and the Mass Shadow Generator, which Vitiate wasn't directly involved with in any sense of the word.

And it matters because Vitiate wasn't influencing it?

Though the Kotor Jedi are stated to be > the PT, kek.

You mean the average KotOR Jedi is supposed to be better than PT, even though Lucas' word basically denies that from taking precedence. The upper-range Jedi from PT are miles ahead, lmfao. Do you seriously think Vandar or Vrook can be mentioned in the same paragraph as Yoda or Mace?

The Stark Hyperspace War is utterly inconsequential in terms of scope compared to Vitiates wars.

Of course, because Vitiate basically said to a bunch of smaller armies "go to the Republic and hit them as hard as you can" and forgot about them. Palpatine was actually involved in his conflicts. Even in the Great Galactic War, Vitiate's presence was minimal in comparison to Palpatine's.

Surely that Vitiate caused far more influence with less interference is to be praised, not derided.

Far more influence? How so? Palpatine actually brought down the Jedi Order and the Galactic Republic, especially the latter, which Vitiate failed to accomplish despite vastly more prep time and vastly more lifetime.

Also Naw, the Kotor crisis brought the Jedi down to their lowest numbers ever in about a decade or something. Sidious couldn't match that in 2 decades of his influence. What a loser.

Again, the Exar Kun War damaged the Order beforehand, and PT survivors >>> KotOR survivors, lol. And Sidious was actually involved in the bringing down of the Order, whereas Vitiate basically point-and-clicked and didn't even realize that the Jedi Order got destroyed. lmfao

And then when Vitiate actually went to war, he failed miserably in defeating the Jedi. The result of the Great Galactic War, for all of the Empire's advantages and Vitiate's meticulous planning and element of surprise, was a freaking stalemate. That's pathetic in comparison to Sidious taking down the Jedi Order after just three years.

Decades of war that were caused by Vitiate. 🙂 And I'm not sure Zakuul bothered the build up tbh.

Decades of war caused by Vitiate that had far less effect than the three-year Clone Wars. And I don't know what you're talking about with that last sentence of yours.

Influencing something doesn't mean you have to directly intend for something to occur. The Jedi Civil War was caused by Vitiate's domination and corruption of Revan and Malak. Therefore he gets credit regardless of his intent.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Whereas when Vitiate attempted to conquer the Republic & Jedi himself, his efforts were stonewalled (despite centuries of planning) and his Empire was put on the back foot.

The Empire was winning actually. It was only Revan's influence on his mind and his own plans preoccupying him that caused the Sith to settle for the Treaty of Coruscant.