Force storms vs. Ziost

Started by MS Warehouse18 pages

lol dude you've literally devolved into deleting arguments. You just dropped the ball on the base delta zero and eclipse star destroyer thing.

Again, no idea what you're talking about. It appears you're really desperately trying to make things up.

At this point your debating skills have devolved into literally nothing - you just gave up on even saying anything.

Yes I've already said that to you. Repeating me makes you prove my point.

How is this an actual argument? You literally said nothing of substance here. You said "the theoretical part absolutely makes sense" and then neglected to actually argue anything.
Try to follow along. I said if we're discussing theoretical situations, then Vitiate's galaxy wide ritual can be used in said discussion.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The codex says Vitiate "intends" to conduct that kind of ritual. Does it ever actually say that it could be pulled off?

Paging Neph

The codex doesn't, I think. But Swtore and I believe the mission info does say that he could pull it off. The Act III screen might say it too.

The Wrath also has a vision of him pulling it off.

Vitiate's galaxy wide ritual can be used in said discussion.

Since we're talking about Ziost, who cares?

1. How do you refute the evidence provided that destroying an Eclipse Super Star Destroyer is significantly more energetic than wiping out life on a planet?

2. How is this "theoretical", when he actually destroyed an eclipse super star destroyer?

3. Why are OOU narrator statements "theoretical" rather than official statements to be taken as a part of the universe in question, when the latter interpretation has been supported by Leland Chee?

4. Why is point 3 relevant when you never bothered to respond to points 1 and 2?

Since we're talking about Ziost, who cares?

Follow along. We aren't talking about Ziost anymore because if we're introducing theoretical vs. practical, that's pretty stupid and theoretical should be argued vs. theoretical.

1. How do you refute the evidence provided that destroying an Eclipse Super Star Destroyer is significantly more energetic than wiping out life on a planet?

Why exactly would I do that? Your argument is "well a machine can do what a man can do". What am I supposed to refute here, lol?

Why are OOU narrator statements "theoretical" rather than official statements to be taken as a part of the universe in question, when the latter interpretation has been supported by Leland Chee

Wtf are you talking about? When did I say statements are theoretical? At this point I'm convinced you just want to keep typing until I stop, rather than having a debate.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Follow along. We aren't talking about Ziost anymore because if we're introducing theoretical vs. practical, that's pretty stupid and theoretical should be argued vs. theoretical.

That's idiotic. The entire point of having theoretical models is to test them against empirical results, lmao.


Why exactly would I do that? Your argument is "well a machine can do what a man can do". What am I supposed to refute here, lol?

No, the point here is that it takes more energy to perform a base delta zero than to destroy an Eclipse super star destroyer, and so Sidious's Storms are more destructive.


Wtf are you talking about? When did I say statements are theoretical? At this point I'm convinced you just want to keep typing until I stop, rather than having a debate.

I said:


Not to mention that statements of what he could do by official sourcebooks stand as evidence, and cannot be dismissed for being "theoretical".

And you said:


This makes about as much sense as using Vitiate's galaxy wide ritual should he ever complete one, since it's as theoretical as what Sidious "would do", especially since Vitiate was stated that he "could do it" too.

If you never denied what "I said", then why did you claim it was wrong? LOL

* less energy

You know that a drain isn't actually intended to be destructive, right? Sidious' attack being "more destructive" wouldn't mean its superior or requires more power to achieve. Since it's an actual offensive attack instead of a drain.

That's idiotic. The entire point of having theoretical models is to test them against empirical results, lmao.

That's idiotic. You don't get to take a theoretical power and claim it's better than what we've actually seen. You test that against another theoretical power, especially if said power is comparable. Again, at this point I'm convinced you're just trying to get the last word in instead of adding anything logical.

That would only be true if the goal were to compare Sidious and Vitiate in their totalities. It wasn't; I just wanted to compare Sidious's Storms to a specific ritual of Vitiate's (Ziost). His galaxy ritual require a f*ckton of setup and prep, and so it's hardly of the same scale. If you want to compare the galaxy rituals to Force storms, you can make your own thread, lol.

BTW, you still seem to think that destroying eclipse super star destroyers is theoretical. I'd told you like six times by now that he actually destroyed one. Every time you literally delete this part from your reply. Interesting.

BTW, you still seem to think that destroying eclipse super star destroyers is theoretical. I'd told you like six times by now that he actually destroyed one. Every time you literally delete this part from your reply. Interesting.


The only interesting thing here is you making things up in the face of failure yet again. I didn't once claim destroying a star destroyer was theoretical. At least if you were strawmanning your way to victory, I could appreciate it a little. The fact that you're strawmanning yourself into defeat is just said. Now are you going to provide something I actually said, or are you going to continue making up my arguments for me?

So if he did destroy a super star destroyer, and you stopped responding to the analysis that it's more impressive than wiping out life on a planet, then Sidious's Force storms are more impressive, no need for the "theoretical" at all.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Ok so the sidious crew is now arguing that one of the imperial ships could PROBABLY destroy a planet if it wanted to. Thats where we are at now with the reaching.
Well no that wasn't my argument, rather than Palpatine destroyed a vessel that can tank planet-busting impact, his Force storms are therefore of a planet busting magnitude. 👆

EDIT: Though the fact that using the same reactor output the Eclipse can bust planets certainly reinforces this argument.

Just like Valkorion's lightning, since Marr can tank more than a planetary shield.

uhuh

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Just like Valkorion's lightning, since Marr can tank more than a planetary shield.

wat

Lighten up, bottom b!tch. 🙂

Originally posted by The Ellimist

BTW I'm being really generous to you by being lazy and not digging up Saxton's descriptions, which were backed by Leland Chee as the authoritative source for firepower specifications [in the EU].

He did? Where?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Can you provide sources to support this? How 'massive' are these tunnels stated to be exactly?

Large enough to house Starship manufacturing facilities inside and the planet itself being labelled as "tunneled" due to them?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do you geology? The crust is the outermost layer of a planet, go outside and you are standing on it. These "shockwaves" reached and fractured the planet's core, thousands of kilometers beneath the crust. A bunch of tunnels on the surface are nowhere near that deep.

I know that.

My point is that tunnels in Pammant are implied to be enormous. Therefore, [powerful] shockwaves could travel through them and reach the crust [more easily].

Also, you are assuming that Pammant is a large planet. We don't really know if its crust was thousands of km beneath the surface. It could be in hundreds.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
👆

An imperial star destroyer's heavy turbolasers output teratons a shot. An Eclipse super star destroyer is like a hundred times more powerful (it has the reactor output of a medium star).

Palpatine destroying one with a storm is MASSIVELY superior to Vitiate wiping out life on a planet - that's shit a frigate could do.

This closes the discussion, even if we buy this bizarre argument that sourcebook statements should be taken as "speculation" unless if we see it in a comic panel or novel.


This is such a pathetic argument. You are not just comparing apples and oranges but also presenting logical fallacies.

Force Storm is a wormhole with blackhole-like properties (wormholes are often dubbed as quantum-entangled blackholes). Should there be no tail at its end, a Force Storm will behave like a blackhole and consume matter in its path for as long as it lasts.

Now, durability of matter/object/machine is meaningless vis-a-vis a blackhole and similar manifestations (should the matter/object/machine be on the receiving-end of such destructive energies) because a blackhole can consume even atoms. And everything comes down to atoms at its tiniest level. Even a micro-blackhole can consume/actually consumes atoms for as long as it lasts.

Your point is that an ISD is like a 'atomic bomb' in motion whose explosion could theoretically wipe out a city. This is all meaningless when an ISD comes into contact with a blackhole or similar manifestation, it will be literally consumed to the last atom. The sheer toughness/power output/destructive power of an ISD will be utterly useless against such manifestations.

---

It took combined might of just dozen (or so) Force-users to push an entire fleet of ISDs [17 in total] outside a Star System. They are not that hard to affect. Force-users are largely hindered by mindset.

Now, do you think that those Force-users could move a planet like that? No, they could not. Not even close. Because a planet is enormous in mass, infinitely larger then any Starship.

Similarly, it takes combined might of a dozen (or so) Force-users to conjure a Force Storm as well, with little practice. Conjuring this power is not a mammoth task; Palpatine learned to do it single-handedly after years of practice.

In contrast, it took 8000 Sith to conjure an expression of Force Drain that would consume all life in the planet and reduce it to a barren wasteland. Reason is that it was too much area to cover and affect. Again, the purpose of Force Drain is entirely different from that of Force Storm; Force Drain powers are intended to affect and/or consume living beings (not matter). However, raw power involved in a planetary-scale attack can be humongous.

Honestly, a fight between Vitiate and Sidious would go something like

🙂