Rivi Anu vs Marka Ragnos

Why do we have to take Bane's opinion on Kas'im's technical knowledge seriously again? This is a guy who had known how to wield a training stick for a few months, and a real lightsaber for a few weeks. He had no clue how to counter jar'kai, for example, while a padawan Anakin felt confident using it against Count Dooku. The only benchmarks he had to compare Kas'im with were fodder trainees - other than that, he only had Kas'im's word. He's not exactly an authority on comparing technical ability, lawl.

Until recently, Kas'im was possibly the single most overrated combatant in the history of Star Wars. People were actually claiming that he could challenge Darth Sidious in a duel. Heck, even Gideon thought this, despite being a verifiable, infallible super-Godgenius to whose honor we all devote ourselves.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Firstly, he doesn't need to do that. You need to prove that what he did was common. DMB shouldn't be expected to compare Kas'im to everyone in history to prove he's special. Secondly, you're refusing to prove your own point while demanding that he proves his. It's no different.

On the other hand not sure where I refused to prove anything. If you'd like a source on Koon being among the best Jedi combatants in history I can provide it.

Sure, why not.

I have been summoned; it appears HWKN's devotion to me endures.

This is a good thread. Let's see Team Feat Wars battle Team Accolade/Power Scale.

Let me walk you through this, DMB. The quote suggesting Kas'im perfected all styles is merely Bane's opinion. The quote is in the same paragraph as the comment that Kas'im is the best ever, which you conceded on CV to be an indefensible position. Now, you leave yourself with the choice. Is Kas'im's mastery Bane's opinion or an omniscient statement? If the latter, then you must also suggest that Kas'im is the best ever as that conclusion comes from the belief that Kas'im mastered the forms to such a degree. Believing that it's an omniscient statement then puts you in that indefensible position you mentioned a mere 15 hours ago.

So we're left with Bane's subjective opinion. Now the question, how much is a Trainee's opinion worth regarding a subject he hasn't nearly delved into long enough for his opinion to mean anything.

We good? We're good. All wrapped up here. 🙂

My Lord, please forgive me for trespassing on Your name. I insulted you, and beg your mercy, though I deserve it not, but for Your infinite grace. 🙁

While I understand the need to prostrate yourself before my Glory, do not distract from the entertaining spat we now witness.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Why do we have to take Bane's opinion on Kas'im's technical knowledge seriously again? This is a guy who had known how to wield a training stick for a few months, and a real lightsaber for a few weeks. He had no clue how to counter jar'kai, for example, while a padawan Anakin felt confident using it against Count Dooku. The only benchmarks he had to compare Kas'im with were fodder trainees - other than that, he only had Kas'im's word. He's not exactly an authority on comparing technical ability, lawl.

Until recently, Kas'im was possibly the single most overrated combatant in the history of Star Wars. People were actually claiming that he could challenge Darth Sidious in a duel. Heck, even Gideon thought this, despite being a verifiable, infallible super-Godgenius to whose honor we all devote ourselves.

Because really what does perfecting every move and sequence entail? Kas'im seems to have invented a bunch of techniques on his own, and according to PoD, every move he taught his students was his own. So unless we are going to assume that Kas'im taught his students nothing of the basics when it comes to the seven styles, I can only assume that while each form has its bread and butter, that can feasibly translate into an infinite number of sequences and combinations. So its effectively impossible to master every single one. Which makes Bane's claim hyperbole by default.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Let me walk you through this, DMB. The quote suggesting Kas'im perfected all styles is merely Bane's opinion. The quote is in the same paragraph as the comment that Kas'im is the best ever, which you conceded on CV to be an indefensible position. Now, you leave yourself with the choice. Is Kas'im's mastery Bane's opinion or an omniscient statement? If the latter, then you must also suggest that Kas'im is the best ever as that conclusion comes from the belief that Kas'im mastered the forms to such a degree. Believing that it's an omniscient statement then puts you in that indefensible position you mentioned a mere 15 hours ago.

So we're left with Bane's subjective opinion. Now the question, how much is a Trainee's opinion worth regarding a subject he hasn't nearly delved into long enough for his opinion to mean anything.

We good? We're good. All wrapped up here. 🙂

I haven't seen Emp actually rumble for a while now. The beatings he hands out are entertaining viewing experience. :3

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, why not.

Plo Koon is a member of the Jedi High Council and a Jedi General in the Clone Wars. Koon is one of the most powerful Jedi ever, with awesome fighting ability, strong telekinetic powers and superb piloting skills.

--Star Wars: Character Encyclopedia

And though the quote says most powerful, it does so in the contexts of lightsaber skill as well as Force power and piloting ability.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Firstly, he doesn't need to do that. You need to prove that what he did was common. DMB shouldn't be expected to compare Kas'im to everyone in history to prove he's special. Secondly, you're refusing to prove your own point while demanding that he proves his. It's no different.

Sorry, was the implication that Kas'im was common? I think, rather, the problem here is that you are implying history's greatest masters are "common".

The Bane team is getting shitstomped.

All this aside, what about accolades/power scaling vs feats? I thought we had a consensus: we use whatever we have to to make the pre-movie era look better.

We haven't changed our minds, right? 😬

Is Galen apart of the movie era? That's all that matters.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Bane team is getting shitstomped.

All this aside, what about accolades/power scaling vs feats? I thought we had a consensus: we use whatever we have to to make the pre-movie era look better.

We haven't changed our minds, right? 😬

Plo Koon can still win a powerscaling/accolades argument. 🙂

The obvious answer is that we use a combination of both, depending on how rational and consistent of a model they provide with respect to the overarching narrative and universe.

If our focus is thematic/narrative consistency, we'd lean accolades for their greater alignment with authorial intent - authors are more likely to establish rational power hierarchies than they are to translate that into calibrating feats with every other author to make sure the characters are as powerful as they should be.

If our focus is to suspend disbelief and analyze everything from a strict empirical mindset, we have no choice but to take the feats at face value, or at least attempt to rationalize them.

Originally posted by Aurbere
Plo Koon can still win a powerscaling/accolades argument. 🙂

Right but that's precisely the reason why we can't use it. We have to use whatever we can to make the pre-movie era look better, right? I thought that was the consensus?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Right but that's precisely the reason why we can't use it. We have to use whatever we can to make the pre-movie era look better, right? I thought that was the consensus?

It is... But Plo 🙁

Originally posted by Aurbere
It is... But Plo 🙁

Hey Aurbere. You should know, I think Ventress is one of the most skilled duelists of all time, so Plo's performance against her put him extremely high up in my mind. 🙂

Originally posted by Aurbere
Let me walk you through this, DMB. The quote suggesting Kas'im perfected all styles is merely Bane's opinion. The quote is in the same paragraph as the comment that Kas'im is the best ever, which you conceded on CV to be an indefensible position. Now, you leave yourself with the choice. Is Kas'im's mastery Bane's opinion or an omniscient statement? If the latter, then you must also suggest that Kas'im is the best ever as that conclusion comes from the belief that Kas'im mastered the forms to such a degree. Believing that it's an omniscient statement then puts you in that indefensible position you mentioned a mere 15 hours ago.

So we're left with Bane's subjective opinion. Now the question, how much is a Trainee's opinion worth regarding a subject he hasn't nearly delved into long enough for his opinion to mean anything.

We good? We're good. All wrapped up here. 🙂

Originally posted by Syndicate
Hey Aurbere. You should know, I think Ventress is one of the most skilled duelists of all time, so Plo's performance against her put him extremely high up in my mind. 🙂

She is, and you're right. Awesome to hear. 😄