Originally posted by Beniboybling
We are all aware of DMB is arguing Plo Koon's status as PT duelist doesn't put him above Kas'im. But he's effectively doing so on the basis that Kas'im's credentials are so above Plo Koon to negate his era advantage, that itself he hasn't attempted to debunk. Bearing in mind that if that couldn't be proven the case, he'd have no case.So yeah, he's arguing Kas'im > Plo, whether he thinks so or not. 😬
Regardless, I think the only thing that matters is everything DMB is saying is wrong. 🙂
Right, so the comparison is whether mastering every sequence and move to every form is enough to compensate for an era disadvantage. It's a legitimate question, albeit one that can't really be resolved here.
Originally posted by The EllimistIndeed but as I said here that's realistically not even possible:
Right, so the comparison is whether mastering every sequence and move to every form is enough to compensate for an era disadvantage. It's a legitimate question, albeit one that can't really be resolved here.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=15741926#post15741926
And its also unlikely to put you in a tier above one of the greatest duelists in mythos.
I'll start with this to begin with:
Originally posted by NewGuy01
No one who knows anything about swordfighting would ever tell you that a specialist in a single martial art would automatically lose to someone who has mastered several. True, mastering multiple styles does provide the advantage of versatility, and a greater understanding of potentially opposing techniques. These are things to be expected of all fencers described as history's greatest masters, though.There are more important factors to consider in a duel between high-level masters than number of forms learned. Degree of mastery in application, reaction times, combat experience, inventiveness/unpredictability, physical advantages, strength in the Force, incorporation of Force-based abilities, strategy, etc. etc. It's for these reasons that someone like Cin Drallig, despite being an academic master of several forms, is infinitely inferior to someone like Anakin Skywalker.
And Kas'im is definitely among the best: he does well for himself in a number of categories--some more than others--but judging him to be superior to a number of other reputable masters simply because of the number of styles he's mastered is silly.
As reasonable as this is, it's not quite correct. You forget that the lightsaber forms are much more rock-paper-scissors than standard martial arts. A swordsman who has mastered all of them has a far greater wealth of strengths to draw upon than someone who's only mastered a single style. In comparison to a Djem So master, this swordsman will not only have the strengths to Djem So to bring out, but also the unbeatable defense of Soresu, the finesse of Makashi, the speed of Ataru, the ferocity of Juyo and Niman and Shii-Cho's, uh, things. They can also much more easily cover their weaknesses. He won't have to deal with Soresu's lackluster offense because he can just switch over to Juyo at any point. The master of a single style will only have their chosen style to draw upon, and any inferior ability they have with others.
A master of all won't always beat a master of one, naturally. However, unless the master of one has a large degree of ability in their single style in excess of the master of all's ability in their styles, I'd give the natural advantage to the master of all. They simply have far more strengths, so much greater versatility and less weaknesses. Obviously though, this goes out of the window when you have someone like Bane who could counter everything Kas'im could do (barring you know what) as well as the natural advantage in Force strength. Like you said, duels are decided by much more than techniques learned. Which is pretty much what Dmb has been trying to say as opposed to the "PT wins cuz they're naturally better in techniques" argument of others.
However, in terms of pure skill and lightsaber knowledge, complete mastery of all forms is a stellar attribute that I feel is being underestimated. This is true of Yoda and Sidious as well.
Anyway....
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Common? Why? We are not discussing common duelists here, we are discussing the very best in history. They are all special. What DMB is suggesting is that Kas'im is super extra special, and yes of that I require some substantive proof.On the other hand not sure where I refused to prove anything. If you'd like a source on Koon being among the best Jedi combatants in history I can provide it.
Aurbere was stating that every "master duelist" has done what Kas'im did, indicating that it's common and nothing special. Clearly when I say common I'm talking about it in the context of the cream of the crop we discuss, though Aubere's tone implies he doesn't agree it needs to be that high level. Dmb responded to Aurbere's point than every master duelist is equivalent to Kas'im's level by pointing out not every master duelist is noted to have reached near the level of refinement and mastery that Kas'im did in all forms. His conclusion that this is a almost unique degree of mastery stands. So unless you're willing to debunk that his accomplishment seems to have been scarcely equaled even among the greatest duelists ever, his case hasn't been beaten yet. It's up to you to show that it isn't special. That no one has yet shown why it is not special, is proof enough that it is. Dmb doesn't have to prove a lack of anyone matching it. That's impossible.
Dmb asked you to prove that Plo Koon's level of mastery is such that he's mastered every aspect of Djem So and you just said that it could be inferred. Which isn't proof.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because really what does perfecting every move and sequence entail?
It means mastery of every form and then spending decades refining his abilities with every move and sequence. Not hard to figure out.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Kas'im seems to have invented a bunch of techniques on his own, and according to PoD, every move he taught his students was his own. So unless we are going to assume that Kas'im taught his students nothing of the basics when it comes to the seven styles, I can only assume that while each form has its bread and butter, that can feasibly translate into an infinite number of sequences and combinations. So its effectively impossible to master every single one. Which makes Bane's claim hyperbole by default.
I have absolutely no idea how you reached that conclusion, lol. There's obviously a limit to how many effective and viable moves you can do that align with the attributes of the form. Kas'ims techniques are said to be designed to maximise offense while minimising defensive exposure, further restricting the possibilities to the most effective moves and sequences.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Also I did a thorough search of PoD and nowhere is it stated that Kas'im invented thousands of techniques. Only that Bane learned almost a hundred under his tutelage. 😬
This was scarcely into Bane's training when he was focusing on a single form. Logically that single form would include vastly more than he'd learned at that point given how ridiculously more advanced he got. Times that by seven and then again and again considering Kas'im did it with multiple saber styles. Thousands is an easy conclusion.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Until recently, Kas'im was possibly the single most overrated combatant in the history of Star Wars. People were actually claiming that he could challenge Darth Sidious in a duel. Heck, even Gideon thought this, despite being a verifiable, infallible super-Godgenius to whose honor we all devote ourselves.
10 years ago =/= recent.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sorry, was the implication that Kas'im was common? I think, rather, the problem here is that you are implying history's greatest masters are "common".
Nope, Aurbere implied it on page one. Get dunked. 😛
Originally posted by EmperordmbDamn, you Bane fans have reacted like some kind of venomous, colourful insect flashing neon lights at the thought of FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEATS being rendered irrelevant. 😂
At first I was leaning Marka Ragnos because feats don't matter and Marka has all the thematic shit going for him...But then I realized Rivi shits on Marka as a duelist because she came 5,000 years later and thus her understanding of lightsaber combat would've been super advanced. And while its completely cancerous to judge combative force ability from force feats, judging it from a display of martial prowess is somehow okay, so therefore Rivi shits on Marka in the Force, and with sabers and force under her belt, Rivi should honestly stomp.
You mean because everyone would try and lowball Bane on the basis of feats saying he was shit there becuz nexus, and now that I've countered that argument and proven that Bane has some pretty insane showings, everyone suddenly wants to shift over to the same "speculative lines of though based on unfounded premises+thematic ideas>>>feats" mentality the forcecast tries to use to justify their shitty verdicts?
Shit I'll take it as a compliment that I've countered the anti-Bane arguments to such an extent that people literally have to shift their whole paradigm by which they judge combat ability to keep him ranked low.
Originally posted by NephthysI was merely addressing his overwhelming salt in jest.
You make fun of Dmb being butthurt for sarcastically making an era supremacy argument........ and then sarcastically make an era supremacy argument?Well, it's certainly a novel approach.
Originally posted by EmperordmbLawl, the world doesn't revolve around you Dylan. Feats have been redundant for a long time, for me at least.
You mean because everyone would try and lowball Bane on the basis of feats saying he was shit there becuz nexus, and now that I've countered that argument and proven that Bane has some pretty insane showings, everyone suddenly wants to shift over to the same "speculative lines of though based on unfounded premises+thematic ideas>>>feats" mentality the forcecast tries to use to justify their shitty verdicts?Shit I'll take it as a compliment that I've countered the anti-Bane arguments to such an extent that people literally have to shift their whole paradigm by which they judge combat ability to keep him ranked low.
But again, I understand why you're upset. Bane is a character whose only defining trait is being super awersome and having hella feats. He's literally just feats. Now that you've realized feats are at best inconsistent and at worst laughable as a means of evidence, you're angry.
You should be happy, though. Feats didn't make Bane > Exar Kun and all the other ancients. Accolades did.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
You mean because everyone would try and lowball Bane on the basis of feats saying he was shit there becuz nexus, and now that I've countered that argument and proven that Bane has some pretty insane showings, everyone suddenly wants to shift over to the same "speculative lines of though based on unfounded premises+thematic ideas>>>feats" mentality the forcecast tries to use to justify their shitty verdicts?Shit I'll take it as a compliment that I've countered the anti-Bane arguments to such an extent that people literally have to shift their whole paradigm by which they judge combat ability to keep him ranked low.
I think you're trying to group two classes of Bane opponents together. Carthage is the one who uses feats; Tempest uses accolades. I use the latter in reality, but troll with the former.
Originally posted by NephthysExcept Aurbere didn't say that:
Aurbere was stating that every "master duelist" has done what Kas'im did, indicating that it's common and nothing special. Clearly when I say common I'm talking about it in the context of the cream of the crop we discuss, though Aubere's tone implies he doesn't agree it needs to be that high level. Dmb responded to Aurbere's point than every master duelist is equivalent to Kas'im's level by pointing out not every master duelist is noted to have reached near the level of refinement and mastery that Kas'im did in all forms. His conclusion that this is a almost unique degree of mastery stands. So unless you're willing to debunk that his accomplishment seems to have been scarcely equaled even among the greatest duelists ever, his case hasn't been beaten yet. It's up to you to show that it isn't special. That no one has yet shown why it is not special, is proof enough that it is. Dmb doesn't have to prove a lack of anyone matching it. That's impossible.
Originally posted by AurbereHe said that master duelists have perfected techniques, not all, just some, which is a logical conclusion to reach seeing as "perfection" follows on from mastery. And I never said as much either.
DMB still hasn't realized that literally every "master duelist" has perfected techniques in lightsaber combat and developed their own on top of that. And then perfected those techniques. This isn't hard to get, guys...
So are you telling me DMB has been barking up the wrong tree this how time with you blithely following him? How amusing.
Anyway let me say this, I and nobody else here stated that Kas'im accomplished is nothing special. Merely that its not in any way significantly better than being one of the greatest duelists in mythos, which itself implies a similar level of mastery, or rather enough to outweigh 1,000 years of lightsaber advancement. There is nothing I need prove, rather you and DMB either need to concede the above point, or refute it. 👆
And for the record no, the fact that some yet to be cited battlemasters couldn't do it proves nothing when discussing the best duellists ever.
Dmb asked you to prove that Plo Koon's level of mastery is such that he's mastered every aspect of Djem So and you just said that it could be inferred. Which isn't proof.Only because you can't make the inference. 😬
It means mastery of every form and then spending decades refining his abilities with every move and sequence. Not hard to figure out.You said its obvious, but then didn't say why. Care to correct that fault in your logic? Seems to me that an infinite number of sequences could be created from any one set of moves, certainly an unfathomably large number. But more importantly we've no reason to believe there exists a stock set of "sequences" one must master to perfect the form.I have absolutely no idea how you reached that conclusion, lol. There's obviously a limit to how many effective and viable moves you can do that align with the attributes of the form. Kas'ims techniques are said to be designed to maximise offense while minimising defensive exposure, further restricting the possibilities to the most effective moves and sequences.
This was scarcely into Bane's training when he was focusing on a single form. Logically that single form would include vastly more than he'd learned at that point given how ridiculously more advanced he got. Times that by seven and then again and again considering Kas'im did it with multiple saber styles. Thousands is an easy conclusion.It's a conclusion that certainly suits your purposes, but how do we know the styles Bane later learned all came from Kas'im. And why times by 7 then 7 again huh?