Darth Bane & Darth Zannah vs Revan & Darth Malak

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@ILS

Actually, the way i read it is like:

Darth Bane had mastered more sith techniques than anyone who had come before him.

I read that as any other apprentice or person within the Dark brotherhood who had come before him.

One could argue shenanigans and say I'm biased, but if the author's intent was to say Darth Bane>Every other sith lord before him, i feel he would have said any other sith lord instead of a vague word like that.

It's very vague imo, a decent quote but vague.

In any case the quote could be rendered invalid as SWTor And other books didn't come out when that fact file was out but meh.

Sure, except that Vitiate really doesn't need accolades for us to see how powerful he is. 👆

What do you think of Luke claiming that all Jedi everywhere will die if Ragnos came back? Just Luke being a drama queen?

He has feats. Bane has out of universe, factual statements.

😱

Originally posted by The Ellimist
What do you think of Luke claiming that all Jedi everywhere will die if Ragnos came back? Just Luke being a drama queen?

Originally posted by ILS
Here's the article:

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225374-1.jpg
http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225375-2.jpg
http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225377-3.jpg
http://static4.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225378-4.jpg

It isn't written in any context because the text is isolated. And it describes Bane's life well past the BoD, up to the point he finds Nadd's holocron, and establishes his base on Ambria with Zannah.

Him using his superior knowledge and power than "anyone" who preceded him to change the Sith Order "forever" doesn't exactly scream "but only in regards to the Brotherhood of Sith, yo!"

You tried to argue in response that it's referring to Bane in his prime, but this can be nowhere inferred; instead its implicitly referring to PoD Bane. The fact that on the next page it goes on to describe events after that is irrelevant, especially when the bulk of the article is about Bane's rise and establishment of a new Sith Order, and as you yourself said, it is isolated from the main text regardless.

Originally posted by ILS
He has feats. Bane has out of universe, factual statements.

😱

Out of universe, factual statements that contradict stuff, considering every impressive thing he accomplished was at a dark side nexus and considering other people's feats and pure combative showings are above his.

Also, can be just as good as out of universe factual statements.

Although... Bane is actually canon. So that quote does not necessarily apply to Legends characters, anyway.

Originally posted by Petrus
Out of universe, factual statements that contradict stuff, considering every impressive thing he accomplished was at a dark side nexus and considering other people's feats and pure combative showings are above his.

Also, can be just as good as out of universe factual statements.

Although... Bane is actually canon. So that quote does not necessarily apply to Legends characters.

A lack of feats isn't necessarily evidence of absence. Bane was in hiding; he didn't exactly have the opportunities to one-up Vitiate on Nathema, for instance.

Pretty sure it's Legends.

Yeah, nah, team 2 takes this in a trying combat.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right, you already said that. To which I responded that the most logical contexts to be inferred are that of the Brotherhood, because the alternative (that's its all of history) doesn't make sense in terms of the very source material it is describing.

And of course, an absence of any stated contexts hardly contradict this.

You tried to argue in response that it's referring to Bane in his prime, but this can be nowhere inferred

instead its implicitly referring to PoD Bane.

The fact that on the next page it goes on to describe events after that is irrelevant

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A lack of feats isn't necessarily evidence of absence.

You're all so caught up in Bioware making Vitiate out to be a megabadass without realizing the logical consequences. Feats, as a means of evidence, suck. They vary massively depending on the medium and the audience it's trying to reach.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
A lack of feats isn't necessarily evidence of absence. Bane was in hiding; he didn't exactly have the opportunities to one-up Vitiate on Nathema, for instance.

Pretty sure it's Legends.

I agree, but when a character lacks feats how can we even use him/her in a versus forum? Of course that even someone who lacks feats could very well be extremely powerful, but we actually need to see it.

How would you react to a canon quote that says Zayne Carrick became one of the most powerful Jedi eventually? Would you take it as absolute certainty even though it contradicts things, only because it's canon?

Just so everyone is clear on what this contradicts:

"To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible, so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith master, that he doubted he would ever dare to use them."

--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction

It being noted that among these were Revan's writings on the Nathema ritual, which were far less advanced than the actual thing.

Originally posted by Petrus
I agree, but when a character lacks feats how can we even use him/her in a versus forum? Of course that even someone who lacks feats could very well be extremely powerful, but we actually need to see it.

How would you react to a canon quote that says Zayne Carrick became one of the most powerful Jedi eventually? Would you take it as absolute certainty even though it contradicts things, only because it's canon?

And again, plenty of people say this. "What if this totally ridiculous quote came out and said this". Two points: it hasn't happened yet, so hypotheticals are hardly much of an argument. And it's only ridiculous because you perceive it that way, which is taking a subjective viewpoint. If a recent Fact File came out and said Malak >>>>> Darth Maul GG get rekt I wouldn't try to get around it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Just so everyone is clear on what this contradicts:

"To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible, so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith master, that he doubted he would ever dare to use them."

--Darth Bane, Path of Destruction

It being noted that among these were Revan's writings on the Nathema ritual, which were far less advanced than the actual thing.

Vitiate is a super-prodigy who studied the Force at the height of the Sith Empire for 100 years, then drained 8,000 Sith Lords as well as an entire planet and its inhabitants and spent another 1300 years further studying the darkside, other sources of knowledge, draining legions of ghosts and continually improving in power and knowledge, spent 300 years draining Revan and then drained another planet to top it all off.

He doesn't exactly need the feats.

Originally posted by ILS
You aren't making any new points. Some questions aren't answerable in the absence of anything outside of feats, and you don't need feats to know if someone is powerful. Marka Ragnos is better than Ahsoka and we haven't even seen him holding a lightsaber.

And again, plenty of people say this. "What if this totally ridiculous quote came out and said this". Two points: it hasn't happened yet, so hypotheticals are hardly much of an argument. And it's only ridiculous because you perceive it that way, which is taking a subjective viewpoint. If a recent Fact File came out and said Malak >>>>> Darth Maul GG get rekt I wouldn't try to get around it.

lmao @ that Bane statement outweighing everything we've seen someone like Vitiate do.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate is a super-prodigy who studied the Force at the height of the Sith Empire for 100 years, then drained 8,000 Sith Lords as well as an entire planets and its inhabitants and spent another 1300 years further studying the darkside, other sources of knowledge, draining legions of ghosts and continually improving in power and knowledge, spent 300 years draining Revan and then drained another planet to top it all off.

He doesn't exactly need the feats.

👆

Originally posted by ILS
Your supposition was that the context you like is the most logical one because otherwise it doesn't make sense to you. Which is nice, it really is, but doesn't really help you.

So you're asking me to prove it isn't in the BoD context? Aka proving a negative? At least you managed to admit there is a very clear "absence of stated contexts".

If the quote is without context, it probably isn't referring to a Bane who had a holocron or two. It has to be referring to Bane when he acquired the relevant knowledge/power to surpass all other Sith, i.e his peak. When he hit that point is inconsequential to the fact he reached that point

Holy shit, according to what? 😂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It says "He used that knowledge and skill to change the Sith Order forever", or rather to destroy the Brotherhood and institute the Rule of Two; which is done in PoD, well before his prime.

Agreed, but it does detract from your point that the quote is meant to be centred on Bane's relationship to the Brotherhood when the article is clearly giving a summary of Bane's full history, which yes, would include whenever he hit his prime. We just didn't know what that looked like until wrote that awful trilogy of his.

And this article was written before Drew's Bane Trilogy?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vitiate is a super-prodigy who studied the Force at the height of the Sith Empire for 100 years, then drained 8,000 Sith Lords as well as an entire planet and its inhabitants and spent another 1300 years further studying the darkside, other sources of knowledge, draining legions of ghosts and continually improving in power and knowledge, spent 300 years draining Revan and then drained another planet to top it all off.

He doesn't exactly need the feats.

🙂

I'm not lost on the general point of Vitiate's character, though. He's a shitty rehash of Sidious. I'm sure he is better than Bane, I just don't think it really detracts from the point of the quote, which is that Bane, at that time, was better than all of those Sith. He still is, but now a new character is MVP.

Originally posted by ILS
Yeah, novice Bane failing to comprehend everything from one holocron of many he would go on to analyse hardly contradicts anything. 😕