Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon48,750 have signed.
Interesting!
I want a response from Disney.
It takes dedication from people to be so pissed off that they willingly and knowingly sign a useless petition.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-have-disney-strike-star-wars-episode-viii-from-the-official-canon48,750 have signed.
it won't even work..
besides those people are butthurt
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The cons:With the New Republic gone things are basically status quo antebellum. It's just pre-ANH all over again.
Luke running away and hiding was pathetically out of character.
The space battles were hilariously unexciting and full of plot holes.
They've killed off the most interesting characters in the saga...
No world building or care towards the greater galaxy
Luke should've gotten a more epic send off - the projection I can live with but at least have him do something combatively awesome, fans have been waiting decades!
Finn was kind of pointless.
Lots of dropped plot points from TFA.
Captain Phasma was totally lame.
1. You missed the overriding message of the movie. Yes the New Republic itself is close to death after sustaining heavy casualties, but the movement behind the institution is reborn and strengthened and rising across the galaxy. When we see the slave kid at the end of the film, he looks up to the stars and has the symbol of rebellion on his finger. This scene shows us that the New Republic may die but the movement will never die.
We even see this arc in the title of the film, Last Jedi. Luke begins as the Last Jedi and wants the Jedi to end, so his change of mind in the projection fight with Kylo Ren is character development and a microcosm of everything happening in the rebellion. While Luke may die, the Jedi will not die. While the New Republic may die, the rebellion will not die. This was Luke's last departing message to Kylo Ren.
2. Luke running away and hiding WAS out of character, and that's the point. Running away to the island and hiding was effectively Luke's death, because it meant he was cut off from the force. After the events of Last Jedi, Luke's reawakening to the force was not a death but a rebirth.
In addition, Luke's arc deals with the consequences of regret and failure. An arc that mirrors Kylo Ren, who also deals with regrets and failure. The beautiful dichotomy between these two arcs is how opposite they go from each other, as Luke learns from his past while Kylo Ren destroys his past.
3. The space battles were unique in this movie and I'm not sure which plot holes you're referring to...
4. They killed off the cliche and rote. Getting rid of
Spoiler:was genius, as it allows the story to focus on a more intimate struggle between Rey's side and Kylo Ren. As far as
Snoke
Spoiler:, he's no longer a main character and it was his time to go.
Luke
5. The luxury of Star Wars is that you don't need to focus on world building, the galaxy is already so well-established that you can focus on characters and relationships and such.
6. If you wanted Luke to have a "combative" send-off, you never truly understood his character. Luke didn't win by fighting, he won with love and with hope. So then it only makes sense that Luke should die not by fighting, but with love and with hope.
7. Finn doesn't need to make a huge impact on the plot of the movie to be an important character...
8. Captain Phasma exists to service Finn's story, she's his primary antagonist. Not much else. If you were expecting a boba fett like character I can see why you'd be disappointed.
I don't really consider any of these complaints to hold water tbh, much of the hatred of Last Jedi is misplaced imo
Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Finally finished the RLM review and they assess that there's nothing interesting or worth looking forward to for the next film and that's the worst damn thing you can do for a franchise like this. Good lord. And I can't believe they did Force Awakens without knowing where they were going for the next two films. That's so sloppy. I really wouldn't have expected them to just make it up as they go along. Wow. The Force Awakens was very calculated and specifically designed to rekindle nostalgia for the series, and then they just started making it up as they go along. Wtf.
I don’t see any problem with them making it up as they go. That’s how the OT did it. In fact, I prefer it this way as it allows the directors far more freedom with the movie preventing the trilogy from being homogenized corporate crap (complain all you want about TLJ but it’s clearly Rian’s baby).
The issue is JJ’s fascination with what he calls “mystery boxes”, these are those little mysteries that pop up in his films and tv shows. The two big ones from TFA being Rey’s parentage and Snoke’s origins. The problem with these mysteries are JJ places a large emphasis on them but doesn’t have answers for these and so he leaves the future directors to figure them. So when these other directors finally unwind the mess that JJ has created and that the audience has hyped up and debated over the past few years, the answers are inevitably underwhelming.
I've said it before but I really don't think Snoke was ever presented as a mystery. Sure, it was an open question and obviously fans speculated over it but nothing in TFA presents him as one and I'm not aware of any marketing hyping his identity up as important.
Rey's parents were definitely a mystery though and one we got an answer for. People were just unsatisfied by it because its a purposefully unsatisfying answer just like it is for Rey. It was always the most likely answer though, fans just went crazy with speculation.
Originally posted by Firefly218
1. You missed the overriding message of the movie. Yes the New Republic itself is close to death after sustaining heavy casualties, but the movement behind the institution is reborn and strengthened and rising across the galaxy. When we see the slave kid at the end of the film, he looks up to the stars and has the symbol of rebellion on his finger. This scene shows us that the New Republic may die but the movement will never die.We even see this arc in the title of the film, [B]Last Jedi
. Luke begins as the Last Jedi and wants the Jedi to end, so his change of mind in the projection fight with Kylo Ren is character development and a microcosm of everything happening in the rebellion. While Luke may die, the Jedi will not die. While the New Republic may die, the rebellion will not die. This was Luke's last departing message to Kylo Ren.2. Luke running away and hiding WAS out of character, and that's the point. Running away to the island and hiding was effectively Luke's death, because it meant he was cut off from the force. After the events of Last Jedi, Luke's reawakening to the force was not a death but a rebirth.
In addition, Luke's arc deals with the consequences of regret and failure. An arc that mirrors Kylo Ren, who also deals with regrets and failure. The beautiful dichotomy between these two arcs is how opposite they go from each other, as Luke learns from his past while Kylo Ren destroys his past.
3. The space battles were unique in this movie and I'm not sure which plot holes you're referring to...
4. They killed off the cliche and rote. Getting rid of
Spoiler:was genius, as it allows the story to focus on a more intimate struggle between Rey's side and Kylo Ren. As far as
SnokeSpoiler:, he's no longer a main character and it was his time to go.
Luke5. The luxury of Star Wars is that you don't need to focus on world building, the galaxy is already so well-established that you can focus on characters and relationships and such.
6. If you wanted Luke to have a "combative" send-off, you never truly understood his character. Luke didn't win by fighting, he won with love and with hope. So then it only makes sense that Luke should die not by fighting, but with love and with hope.
7. Finn doesn't need to make a huge impact on the plot of the movie to be an important character...
8. Captain Phasma exists to service Finn's story, she's his primary antagonist. Not much else. If you were expecting a boba fett like character I can see why you'd be disappointed.
I don't really consider any of these complaints to hold water tbh, much of the hatred of Last Jedi is misplaced imo [/B]
1. You just described pre-rebel alliance situations. His point is correct.
2. Your perspective is interesting. Still agree with the other guy: out of character. It wasn't Luke. Mark Hamill doesn't agree with the direction, either. Lots of butthurt fans don't agree, as well.
3. They were not unique. The "being chased by the big bad guys" thing is nothing new. The plothole is using hyper drive kamikazes. If that was possible this entire time then they could have just create a fleet of autonomous or AI controlled ships that jumped to hyperspace right through capital ships from the Empire. This is a huge plothole they introduced and not a very bright idea, at all. It's call as f*ck, sure...but stupid injection. And the fact that the Vice Admiral had to stay on the ship is just dumb. Millions or billions of droids and AI in this universe and a human has to stay behind to activate the hyperdrive and point it in the right direction eh?
4. Getting rid of both was not genius. Just lazy writing to me. And a let down.
5. Somewhat agree, here. But I wanted to see more galaxy building.
6. Good point. That's exactly what he did at the end of RotJ: he threw his lightsaber away. So he resolutely commits to this path and then..then...the movie shits all over the OT's climatic decision of Luke Skywalker.
7. I disagree. He was central to the first film and he was supposed to be a headliner for the second. They just didn't know what to do with him when they were debating him in a committee.
8. Captain Phasma is just extra goodies from the first one that they didn't know what to do with. It was too hard to write anything good for her soooo, to rubbish plot she goes! 😄
Also, it makes it easier to keep track of these points when they are numbered.
Originally posted by Firefly218
1. You missed the overriding message of the movie. Yes the New Republic itself is close to death after sustaining heavy casualties, but the movement behind the institution is reborn and strengthened and rising across the galaxy. When we see the slave kid at the end of the film, he looks up to the stars and has the symbol of rebellion on his finger. This scene shows us that the New Republic may die but the movement will never die.
That doesn't change what I was saying though - it's status quo ante bellum back to the beginning of A New Hope. "The movement" already existed at the beginning of the Original Trilogy, but the whole point was that the Rebels won.
Heck, that spark at the end of TLJ is weaker than the spark that had been ignited in the Star Wars Rebels series, given that by ANH the Rebellion had acquired major support among the Imperial Senate, several important planets and individuals, etc.
We even see this arc in the title of the film, Last Jedi. Luke begins as the Last Jedi and wants the Jedi to end, so his change of mind in the projection fight with Kylo Ren is character development and a microcosm of everything happening in the rebellion. While Luke may die, the Jedi will not die. While the New Republic may die, the rebellion will not die. This was Luke's last departing message to Kylo Ren.
The rebellion isn't the end goal, a flourishing Republic is, and at that they have failed, lol. Indeed, the Rebellion is now weaker than it had been in ANH, which is ridiculous unto itself given that the New Republic was the dominant political power in the galaxy literally a few days before.
It's also incredibly uncreative from an out of universe perspective.
2. Luke running away and hiding WAS out of character, and that's the point. Running away to the island and hiding was effectively Luke's death, because it meant he was cut off from the force. After the events of Last Jedi, Luke's reawakening to the force was not a death but a rebirth.In addition, Luke's arc deals with the consequences of regret and failure. An arc that mirrors Kylo Ren, who also deals with regrets and failure. The beautiful dichotomy between these two arcs is how opposite they go from each other, as Luke learns from his past while Kylo Ren destroys his past.
I know it was the point - I'm saying it was a bad point. It countermands Luke's character arc built over three movies, and wasn't at all realistic of him. If you're going to use a character to explore "the consequences of regret and failure", you need to pick the right one in the right context.
3. The space battles were unique in this movie and I'm not sure which plot holes you're referring to...
- why hasn't anybody tried autopiloted lightspeed ramming if that can take out entire fleets?
- why do they need to literally vertically drop bombs on ships in space?
- why didn't the FO just hyperdrive in front of the fleeing Rebel ships?
- why do they claim lightspeed tracking is impossible when that was a major plot in ANH?
- why can't the First Order muster more than a few dozen ships when it supposedly subjugated the entire galaxy?
I could go on and on, these are elementary errors that really shatter the credulity of the overarching military conflict.
4. They killed off the cliche and rote. Getting rid ofSpoiler:was genius, as it allows the story to focus on a more intimate struggle between Rey's side and Kylo Ren.
Snoke
I'm split on the Snoke twist - the con here is that quite frankly, neither Rey nor Kylo are bad characters, but they aren't interesting enough to constitute the entire plot. Kylo himself isn't close to being intimidating enough to make a good main villain.
As far asSpoiler:, he's no longer a main character and it was his time to go.
Luke
Circular logic aside, Luke is by far the most iconic and interesting of the remaining main heroes. If they have successfully created characters good enough to displace Luke then fine, but they didn't. Rey, Finn and Poe are not Luke, Leia and Han, not even close.
What's more, audiences have been waiting forty years for Luke's return, and there's so much that must have happened in that gap that you can't possibly say there wasn't a lot of stuff to explore.
5. The luxury of Star Wars is that you don't need to focus on world building, the galaxy is already so well-established that you can focus on characters and relationships and such.
Yeah but the galaxy is a big part of the allure, and aside from that one casino planet there's no weight or attention given to the overarching conflict at all. The entire struggle of the heroes is to restore the Republic, but nobody knows anything about it!
6. If you wanted Luke to have a "combative" send-off, you never truly understood his character. Luke didn't win by fighting, he won with love and with hope. So then it only makes sense that Luke should die not by fighting, but with love and with hope.
Lmao what? Luke fights regularly in the Original Trilogy, which isn't mutually exclusive from showing compassion (which, by the way, contradicts your earlier defense of his being out of character).
7. Finn doesn't need to make a huge impact on the plot of the movie to be an important character...
So what's he supposed to be? Interesting? Charismatic? Funny?
8. Captain Phasma exists to service Finn's story, she's his primary antagonist. Not much else. If you were expecting a boba fett like character I can see why you'd be disappointed.
Then blame Disney for purposely hyping her up.
I think The Last Jedi was an incredibly riveting and exciting movie. Whether it is good in the long run for the Star Wars franchise as a whole remains to be seen.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Name them.
Kylo, Rey, and Luke despite what they did with him
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
By ripping off ESB [b]AND ROTJ? Yeah, right 😐 [/B]
Not at all. Sure, a lot of the scenes may be set up similarly (Crait/Hoth, Snoke/Palpatine, etc…) but they all play out entirely different.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Rey's parents were definitely a mystery though and one we got an answer for. People were just unsatisfied by it because its a purposefully unsatisfying answer just like it is for Rey. It was always the most likely answer though, fans just went crazy with speculation.
I liked Firefly's explanation of this choice:
It was supposed to show that just about anyone can become hope. Anyone from anywhere.
ST. Sequel Trilogy.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
- why hasn't anybody tried autopiloted lightspeed ramming if that can take out entire fleets?
Yeah, this is a problem.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
- why do they need to literally vertically drop bombs on ships in space?
Star Wars physics. Sorry, but this is just a really stupid nitpick. In SW there is noise in space, starships battle like planes in atmosphere, etc…
Originally posted by The Ellimist
- why didn't the FO just hyperdrive in front of the fleeing Rebel ships?
Fair. Though I suppose while they are doing this the Rebel Fleer could escape.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
- why do they claim lightspeed tracking is impossible when that was a major plot in ANH?
Different type of tracking. In ANH the Empire is tracking a homing beacon placed on the ship. The Supremacy had some new tech that allowed them to track the ships themselves. No beacons needed.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
- why can't the First Order muster more than a few dozen ships when it supposedly subjugated the entire galaxy?
Why didn’t the Empire calls in more ships at Endor or Yavin? It’s simple, Snoke thought he had enough. I also expect the rest of the FO fleet was busy subjecting the galaxy at this time.
Originally posted by ares834
Why didn’t the Empire calls in more ships at Endor or Yavin? It’s simple, Snoke thought he had enough. I also expect the rest of the FO fleet was busy subjectingthe utter living shitty piss balls out of the rest of the galaxy at this time.
I took some liberties to emphasize your point, here.
Yes, the trench run had a reason: no direct approach because the trench cannons would take them out. You had to fly along and enter through a previously identified "weak" spot that would allow you to drop into the trench to make an attack against the exhaust vent with AI assisted proton torpedoes.
But dropping bombs from "on top"? Yeah...there's just...no reason for that. They can just hyperdrive jump right through the spot. 🙂