I have a hard time seeing Caesar duplicating what Cap does at the 8 second mark, based on the feats we actually have available for him.
On a random note, gotta love plot armour. That woman should have been killed from Thor tossing her upwards like that, after falling for like 12 seconds.
My problem with only referencing Cap punching through a sub window or overpowering Bucky's arm, which by proxy, has dented cement. Well, normal trained humans have blocked Bucky's arm. What happened there? Why didn't it overpower their block? Why were people able to block Cap's arm, I mean he punched through a sub window... I could go on and on with such examples. You can't just take the high ones, you have to factor in ALL the showings and then find a medium. People don't seem to do that with Cap or Bucky for that matter.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
My problem with only referencing Cap punching through a sub window or overpowering Bucky's arm, which by proxy, has dented cement. Well, normal trained humans have blocked Bucky's arm. What happened there? Why didn't it overpower their block? Why were people able to block Cap's arm, I mean he punched through a sub window... I could go on and on with such examples. You can't just take the high ones, you have to factor in ALL the showings and then find a medium. People don't seem to do that with Cap or Bucky for that matter.
Could you mention specifically who was able to block Cap's and Bucky's hits and how they were able to block them? Did they stop the fist or did they preemptively block the attack further up the arm?
Sure, IM out of his suit was able to parry one of Bucky's blow from his arm. BW was also able to do the same a parry a blow or two from his arm. I reference the Elevator scene in the WS, Rumalow was able to block and catch two punches from Cap. Even in Civil War, a couple of mook fodder soldiers working for Rumalow were able to block a blow from Cap. How is this possible? I mean he punched through a Sub window? See what I'm saying? Clearly when facing tangible living targets and combined with skill, and can clearly do better than inanimate objects.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Sure, IM out of his suit was able to parry one of Bucky's blow from his arm. BW was also able to do the same a parry a blow or two from his arm. I reference the Elevator scene in the WS, Rumalow was able to block and catch two punches from Cap. Even in Civil War, a couple of mook fodder soldiers working for Rumalow were able to block a blow from Cap. How is this possible? I mean he punched through a Sub window? See what I'm saying? Clearly when facing tangible living targets and combined with skill, and can clearly do better than inanimate objects.
If you did martial arts like you say you did, you'd know that a parry is different from a block. Parry implies that you redirect the energy of the blowwhereas block means stopping the blow. Furthermore, the focus of energy in a punch is at the fist, on the knuckles. All the fights you mentioned (I'll double check later) where they actually block hits from Cap and WS, they never block and stop the fist itself, they block the arm, further up the arm. This allows someone to utilize leverage instead of just pure strength.
For example, I can block a heavyweight's roundhouse kick with one arm if I block him near the hip/thigh area. That doesn't mean that my one arm is stronger than his kick, I simply utilized leverage.
Thor catching IM's punch and stopping it in mid air, now there's a block where you can say, "Yes, Thor is stronger than IM's punch". If you can show any human doing the same to Cap and WS then you'll have a point.
Even if we ignore punching feats, I still don't think Caesar is strong enough to replicate some of Caps other strength feats such as:
Holding up a motorcycle with people
Making that super-jump to escape RS's base
Tossing the motorcycle
Cutting through high tensile strength steel cables with use of shield
Cutting into a Quinjet with use of shield
Holding the car from falling
Holding down a helicopter
What is Caesar's greatest strength feat? I recall in the first film, the orangutan (maybe gorilla?) picked up a manhole cover and threw it like a Frisbee. That's very impressive, but the orangutan is considerably larger than Caesar.
Originally posted by FrothByte
If you did martial arts like you say you did, you'd know that a parry is different from a block. Parry implies that you redirect the energy of the blowwhereas block means stopping the blow. Furthermore, the focus of energy in a punch is at the fist, on the knuckles. All the fights you mentioned (I'll double check later) where they actually block hits from Cap and WS, they never block and stop the fist itself, they block the arm, further up the arm. This allows someone to utilize leverage instead of just pure strength.For example, I can block a heavyweight's roundhouse kick with one arm if I block him near the hip/thigh area. That doesn't mean that my one arm is stronger than his kick, I simply utilized leverage.
Thor catching IM's punch and stopping it in mid air, now there's a block where you can say, "Yes, Thor is stronger than IM's punch". If you can show any human doing the same to Cap and WS then you'll have a point.
Rumalow literally caught his arm 2 different times, he didn't just divert the energy. Furthermore, you are exactly proving my point. Punching a submarine means F-all when it comes to fighting a real life person who CAN divert the energy of a blow. That is my EXACT point, and why feats of WS pummeling concrete or Cap punching a sub window are useless when we see regular humans, skilled ones, are able to block and withstand blows from them.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Rumalow literally caught his arm 2 different times, he didn't just divert the energy. Furthermore, you are exactly proving my point. Punching a submarine means F-all when it comes to fighting a real life person who CAN divert the energy of a blow. That is my EXACT point, and why feats of WS pummeling concrete or Cap punching a sub window are useless when we see regular humans, skilled ones, are able to block and withstand blows from them.
Hitting an object that is rigid and unyielding is different from striking a human who can move away from your blow.
Also, there are martial artists that can punch strong enough to break thick slabs of brick, that doesn't mean that all their hits are just as strong especially if they're fighting off multiple attackers like WS and Cap usually do. Doesn't change the fact that Cap punched through a submarine windows and that needed far stronger power than any Caesar showed.
It actually means just that, those feats are useless to count when dealing with real life fights. Clearly, they can be caught or countered, and that is my exact point. I don't think you realize that you're actually agreeing with me man. I know you feel Cap wins, but my point on this sub topic, you agree with.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
It actually means just that, those feats are useless to count when dealing with real life fights. Clearly, they can be caught or countered, and that is my exact point. I don't think you realize that you're actually agreeing with me man. I know you feel Cap wins, but my point on this sub topic, you agree with.
Your point is that Cap is not that much stronger than Ceasar, correct? And yet all you do is debate Cap's strength feats without providing any strength feats for Ceasar. If you really want to prove your point, go post some strength feats of Ceasar. Otherwise all you're doing is strawmanning.
No, I've talked about that subject already. Some people aren't required to have strength feats like Cap. For example Caesar, wasn't required to Lift a motorcycle or bend steel or any of his feats really, but that doesn't mean you can blanket say he's not as strong. Just like the characters I mentioned previously, Thanos, Odin etc etc they have zero lifting feats... So we could use your same argument and claim Cap is stronger than them... when we actually know that is a laughable stance. I have no issue if you feel Cap is stronger than Caesar. He could be, maybe he is. What I'm contesting is this notion that he's vastly stronger than Caesar, I don't buy that, not even close to buying that. That is how this whole conversation started.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No, I've talked about that subject already. Some people aren't required to have strength feats like Cap. For example Caesar, wasn't required to Lift a motorcycle or bend steel or any of his feats really, but that doesn't mean you can blanket say he's not as strong. Just like the characters I mentioned previously, Thanos, Odin etc etc they have zero lifting feats... So we could use your same argument and claim Cap is stronger than them... when we actually know that is a laughable stance. I have no issue if you feel Cap is stronger than Caesar. He could be, maybe he is. What I'm contesting is this notion that he's vastly stronger than Caesar, I don't buy that, not even close to buying that. That is how this whole conversation started.
Dude, I already replied to this. We can infer how strong Thanos is by the deference that Loki and Ronan show him. We can infer how strong Odin is by how strong regular Asgardians are.
The ONLY gauge we have of how strong Caesar is is by comparing his strength level to the average chimp, and Cap has feats that make him quite a lot stronger than the average chimp.
Because realistically what you're asking us here is to believe that he's near Cap's strength based solely on your word.
What's odd about your whole post is that you seem to say implied power or strength can count; like in the case of Odin and thanos, but then turned around and act like it was clear with Caesar. What?? I don't think it could be any more clear. You keep on thinking it's only about intelligence and not strength, yet that is the very point you're missing. Because he's so much smarter than even the enhanced chimps, what would that mean? I would mean he would know how to fight faster, change tactics mid fight, how to train. There isn't a thing intelligence doesn't help to get you better. Npw, if he was some skinny short chimp who just smart, sure that won't mean much. That isn't the case here, he seems bigger than most not smaller. So clearly physicality isn't an issue. He ran the damn shit, no other chimp, no other larger species of ape even hinted and trying to take control except a crazy one his size. How much more clear can it be?
Now, the reason why I'm unconvinced Cap is THAT much stronge9r is simple, evidence varies on how much stronger they are. Some say 2x, other 4x, I've even seen as high as 7/8. That is a huge gap between the extreme ends when it comes to how it would translate in real life. If it's on the higher end, there is no way Cap is stronger, in fact, he could be weaker. If it's on the lower end, than sure Cap is likely a stronger, but again, it wouldn't be by much. Especially if we use the actually movie and what it says. He's the peak of what a human can be. It doesn't say 2x or 3x or 5x which could be construed as stronger than merely peak human. That is the issue. Cap's feats if taken literally obviously should put him above peak human (though I'd argue, we have no clue what a peak human could do strength wise, we haven't seen it.) So he seems to be clearly above "peak" human as some see it, but how much?
Originally posted by Robtard
Even if we ignore punching feats, I still don't think Caesar is strong enough to replicate some of Caps other strength feats such as:Holding up a motorcycle with people
Making that super-jump to escape RS's base
Tossing the motorcycle
Cutting through high tensile strength steel cables with use of shield
Cutting into a Quinjet with use of shield
Holding the car from falling
Holding down a helicopterWhat is Caesar's greatest strength feat? I recall in the first film, the orangutan (maybe gorilla?) picked up a manhole cover and threw it like a Frisbee. That's very impressive, but the orangutan is considerably larger than Caesar.
That's just it, as you know, Caesar doesn't have lifting feats nor was he required to do any. Seems pretty clear we agree on that. So we're left with, like my post to Froth illustrates, how much stronger do you believe chimps are to humans? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Then I'd like to see how much stronger is Cap to a human.
Now all the feats you referenced? Yes I believe he could do most of those if Caesar's strength level is on the higher end of the studies. Then clearly yes. he could and that seems pretty easy to see. IF he's on the lower side, then maybe not. Even then, he'd be able to do some of them even being only 2 or 3 times stronger.
Originally posted by FrothByte
If you did martial arts like you say you did, you'd know that a parry is different from a block. Parry implies that you redirect the energy of the blowwhereas block means stopping the blow. Furthermore, the focus of energy in a punch is at the fist, on the knuckles. All the fights you mentioned (I'll double check later) where they actually block hits from Cap and WS, they never block and stop the fist itself, they block the arm, further up the arm. This allows someone to utilize leverage instead of just pure strength. Actually, looking at it again, the "grab" when Cap's one arm is in the cuff also looks like a block from Cap, as Rumlow comes in with a wide baton swing.For example, I can block a heavyweight's roundhouse kick with one arm if I block him near the hip/thigh area. That doesn't mean that my one arm is stronger than his kick, I simply utilized leverage.
Thor catching IM's punch and stopping it in mid air, now there's a block where you can say, "Yes, Thor is stronger than IM's punch". If you can show any human doing the same to Cap and WS then you'll have a point.
Also, Rumlow did not catch any of his punches. It's actually the opposite. Cap blocks two of Rumlow's baton strikes (you can clearly see Cap's arm on the inside, holding Brock's left arm out). All that Rumlow does is dodge one of Cap's hits. Unless we want to include Rumlow briefly grabbing Cap's one arm, while he was at an extremely awkward position, with his other arm pinned against the elevator wall, which would severely hamper how much strength he could exert. Actually, looking at that grab again, it also looks like Steve is blocking, considering Rumlow is the one coming in with a wide baton swing.