Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Also, Rumlow did not catch any of his punches. It's actually the opposite. Cap blocks two of Rumlow's baton strikes (you can clearly see Cap's arm on the inside, holding Brock's left arm out). All that Rumlow does is dodge one of Cap's hits. Unless we want to include Rumlow briefly grabbing Cap's one arm, while he was at an extremely awkward position, with his other arm pinned against the elevator wall, which would severely hamper how much strength he could exert. Actually, looking at that grab again, it also looks like Steve is blocking, considering Rumlow is the one coming in with a wide baton swing.
I understand what you're seeing, but I don't think it helps the case at all. In the first encounter, Rumlow is the one who kicks Cap arm into said position with the cuff. Cap was unable to stop it, block it, or react and dodge. Then yes, he was hampered in said position, however he was able to fight off multiple people in said position, and even one shot KO some. However when they exchange again, again, Cap goes out on the losing end of a exchange. Further illustrating what trained humans can do against Cap and bucky types at times mind you. Then Cap knocks him off, engages a few more people, kicks their ass and breaks his arm free. Then they exchange again, and again, Cap is on the losing end of multiple exchanges. The first exchange I see what you're saying. But you can also clearly see Rumlow has his fingers wrapped around his arm, thus the grab. I admit it's kind ambiguous who is throwing what there, It looks like Cap to me, but I can see it the other. The second block for whoever, again is hard to tell. But regardless, Cap was UNABLE to react to the second shot on 3 separate occasions and was hit. This is a normal, just well trained human. All is illustrates the same thing, and how this discussion started. People keep citing stuff like Submarine punch, and concrete punch from Bucky, as if to illustrate this is how hard they punch and how much damage they can do to a foe. When in actuality what we see is, when they are fighting trained people, their shots can be dodged, countered, strikes landed, grabs landed etc etc.
As for this fight, I don't think people realize how strong Chimps can be, and nor how vicious. They have sharp claws and teeth, ones they use with viscous effect. I never really said who would win, but I can tell you this, if Caesar is at the top end of studies that show them as over 4x the strength of a human. Good luck Cap. That's just how I see it.
Let's also remember that Cap tanked Thor's hammer with his shield. Even with the shield being able to withstand the hit, it clearly didn't disperse all of the forced as evidenced by the shock wave that went out. His body had to absorb the impact, and he did so without issue. There's no way Ceasar delivers anything on par with that.
There is nothing to remotely suggest that the chimp has a chance, end of story.
Did you just cite, Cap SHIELD getting hit from Hit, and trying to use that as something even the least bit impressive? That's comical. The shield even being used at all, negates it really being meaningful at all. While we're at it, shall I reference Cap getting KO'd by a rocket grenade in WS, mind you, he had his shield up for it and it still KO'd him. Nice example though bud lol
Originally posted by NotAllThatEvil
I believe that is what we like to refere as "lowballing". We see cap able to handle ironman, spiderman, bucky, and loki. We also see bucky practically walk through black widow and 13. But because they show cap get hit a few times in a fight he won, we assume a monkey could beat him?
Only he didn't walk through them did he. 13 was able to counter and land strikes of her own. BW was able to lock him up and elbow him like 3 times. In their first encounter, she fooled WS and got the jump on him, again, and was able to temp neutralize his arm and also disarm him. Stop acting like these things didn't happen. As evidenced, people with skill can and have countered them, as well as land blows on them. It's that simple, saying otherwise is being blatantly disingenuous
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Did you just cite, Cap SHIELD getting hit from Hit, and trying to use that as something even the least bit impressive? That's comical. The shield even being used at all, negates it really being meaningful at all. While we're at it, shall I reference Cap getting KO'd by a rocket grenade in WS, mind you, he had his shield up for it and it still KO'd him. Nice example though bud lol
So you think the chimp could have taken that simply by having the shield? You think the chimp could have taken that RPG blast better than Cap, who survived decades frozen in ice?
Anyway, I'm done. You clearly have your own view on things that refuses to take reason into account.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I understand what you're seeing, but I don't think it helps the case at all. In the first encounter, Rumlow is the one who kicks Cap arm into said position with the cuff. Cap was unable to stop it, block it, or react and dodge. Then yes, he was hampered in said position, however he was able to fight off multiple people in said position, and even one shot KO some. However when they exchange again, again, Cap goes out on the losing end of a exchange. Further illustrating what trained humans can do against Cap and bucky types at times mind you. Then Cap knocks him off, engages a few more people, kicks their ass and breaks his arm free. Then they exchange again, and again, Cap is on the losing end of multiple exchanges. The first exchange I see what you're saying. But you can also clearly see Rumlow has his fingers wrapped around his arm, thus the grab. I admit it's kind ambiguous who is throwing what there, It looks like Cap to me, but I can see it the other. The second block for whoever, again is hard to tell. But regardless, Cap was UNABLE to react to the second shot on 3 separate occasions and was hit. This is a normal, just well trained human. All is illustrates the same thing, and how this discussion started. People keep citing stuff like Submarine punch, and concrete punch from Bucky, as if to illustrate this is how hard they punch and how much damage they can do to a foe. When in actuality what we see is, when they are fighting trained people, their shots can be dodged, countered, strikes landed, grabs landed etc etc.
To me, personally, it looked fairly clear. Cap's right arm bent at the elbow, blocking from wide strikes coming in. His arm was on the inside, and bent, which is not a striking position, as opposed to a classic block position (it's textbook in a lot of styles, like multiple forms of Karate). Plus, if Cap was striking in such a way that Rumlow was having to block from an outside angle, where was Cap aiming those strikes? Because neither would have hit anything.
Rumlow grabbing Cap's wrist just means he tried to grab Cap's wrist. He does it when Cap's other arm is pinned as well, but looking more clearly we can see that Rumlow threw the strike in that instance as well. And you said it yourself. Cap wrecked all the other guys there quite easily. So if Cap can stomp 9 guys but has problem with 1, it just means that guy in particular has to be exceptional. Because Rumlow isn't just any highly trained guy. People like Rumlow, Hawkeye, Widow etc. are among the absolutely very best non-enhanced human combatants on the MCU Earth. And this is by comicbook movieverse standards, which is above real life. So people like them occasionally landing some relatively ineffectual hits on the Super Soldiers isn't that far-fetched to me.
So Rumlow being skilled enough to tag Steve multiple times just means that Caesar could probably tag him, having chimp speed and agility. But that doesn't say much for strength. Because, remember, comicbook and real life does not really stack up well. Also, when people throw out the times 3x, 4x, 6x numbers etc. for chimps, they are generally talking about the average adult real life male. Not elite fictional humans. And we also don't know how far comic movie human "full" potential (like Cap supposedly has) deviates from the average real adult male (based on things like the car feat I linked, he is also several times stronger than the average adult RL male, but the difference is he has several feats showing this). So trying to draw comparisons there is likely to just get stuck.
Edit: Also, as to striking and not shattering bones etc. Marvel takes serious liberties with how the laws of physics work, in order to keep the films PG (another example, the woman Thor tosses in that clip). Fact is the force required to send people sailing through the air for several feat, like Super Soldiers have done on multiple occasions, is also more than enough force to break human bone, or worse. Like we see WS's arm literally shatter concrete. A human body is not that tough. If WS hit them in real life, they'd turn to goo. Similar to Cap. If he shield tosses someone at full force, he should actually slice them up. And we see it showcased like when he tosses his shield into Utron Prime's chest, and it lodges in several inches. If it did that to Ultron, it should destroy a human ribcage. We've also seen Cap swing a person into a concrete pillar hard enough to crack it. But people miraculously stay intact, and never shatter bones etc. That's due to PIS for the sake of age restrictions. Compare that to a show like Daredevil. It's R-rated, so there are numerous times where we see/hear Matt breaking people's bones in multiple fights. Does that mean he hits harder than Cap? Not by a long shot. But they have more freedom to show violent effects.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To me, personally, it looked fairly clear. Cap's right arm bent at the elbow, blocking from wide strikes coming in. His arm was on the inside, and bent, which is not a striking position, as opposed to a classic block position (it's textbook in a lot of styles, like multiple forms of Karate). Plus, if Cap was striking in such a way that Rumlow was having to block from an outside angle, where was Cap aiming those strikes? Because neither would have hit anything.Rumlow grabbing Cap's wrist just means he tried to grab Cap's wrist. He does it when Cap's other arm is pinned as well, but looking more clearly we can see that Rumlow threw the strike in that instance as well. And you said it yourself. Cap wrecked all the other guys there quite easily. So if Cap can stomp 9 guys but has problem with 1, it just means that guy in particular has to be exceptional. Because Rumlow isn't just any highly trained guy. People like Rumlow, Hawkeye, Widow etc. are among the absolutely very best non-enhanced human combatants on the MCU Earth. And this is by comicbook movieverse standards, which is above real life. So people like them occasionally landing some relatively ineffectual hits on the Super Soldiers isn't that far-fetched to me.
So Rumlow being skilled enough to tag Steve multiple times just means that Caesar could probably tag him, having chimp speed and agility. But that doesn't say much for strength. Because, remember, comicbook and real life does not really stack up well. Also, when people throw out the times 3x, 4x, 6x numbers etc. for chimps, they are generally talking about the average adult real life male. Not elite fictional humans. And we also don't know how far comic movie human "full" potential (like Cap supposedly has) deviates from the average real adult male (based on things like the car feat I linked, he is also several times stronger than the average adult RL male, but the difference is he has several feats showing this). So trying to draw comparisons there is likely to just get stuck.
Edit: Also, as to striking and not shattering bones etc. Marvel takes serious liberties with how the laws of physics work, in order to keep the films PG (another example, the woman Thor tosses in that clip). Fact is the force required to send people sailing through the air for several feat, like Super Soldiers have done on multiple occasions, is also more than enough force to break human bone, or worse. Like we see WS's arm literally shatter concrete. A human body is not that tough. If WS hit them in real life, they'd turn to goo. Similar to Cap. If he shield tosses someone at full force, he should actually slice them up. And we see it showcased like when he tosses his shield into Utron Prime's chest, and it lodges in several inches. If it did that to Ultron, it should destroy a human ribcage. We've also seen Cap swing a person into a concrete pillar hard enough to crack it. But people miraculously stay intact, and never shatter bones etc. That's due to PIS for the sake of age restrictions. Compare that to a show like Daredevil. It's R-rated, so there are numerous times where we see/hear Matt breaking people's bones in multiple fights. Does that mean he hits harder than Cap? Not by a long shot. But they have more freedom to show violent effects.
I understand what you're saying bout the sequences and get it, but it still doesn't change the overall point, which you get. Cap can be countered and hit, and he can lose exchanges. I agree Cap is formidable, and he could win as well, not saying otherwise. However, I think people are selling Caesar a little short here considering his stats, claws and teeth.