Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Give me the timestamp for that in this video. It could be that you're mistaking Obi Wan for simply being a defensive fighter for Maul having the advantage.
1:17-1:20, when Obi-Wan starts getting smacked around via Maul's kicks. That's how they move up 1 level. He even shouts in pain from those kicks. And it's Before Maul brings up Qui-Gon and Unbalances him.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNovaHonestly, I didn't even remember that fight. But as you say it was a stalemate.
Yes, I'd expect both brothers to be Kenobi's superior in an open space.
👆
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNovaMaul and Kenobi are peers in TCW. With Kenobi's improvement as of LoE supported by his performance against Dooku in RotS, Obi Wan would be his superior.
You're forgetting Maul was confirmed to have been improving up until his fight with Sidious at least (Shadow Conspiracy). And likely only got amped further after the deaths of Savage and Talzin.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
1:17-1:20, when Obi-Wan starts getting smacked around via Maul's kicks. That's how they move up 1 level. He even shouts in pain from those kicks. And it's Before Maul brings up Qui-Gon and Unbalances him.👆
You're forgetting Maul was confirmed to have been improving up until his fight with Sidious at least (Shadow Conspiracy). And likely only got amped further after the deaths of Savage and Talzin.
He had just TK'ed Maul and could've pressed his advantage but instead decided to aid Ventress by throwing her one of the lightsabers. Not to mention that he'd been physically assaulted by the brother's beforehand. I imagine that took its toll on his endurance which lead to Maul landing his kicks.
Can I get the quote for that? Also, I think losing all of his allies and resources would lead to him giving in to despair rather then a renewed fervor. This is supported by Rebels Maul being described as "lost" and "broken" in Witwer's interviews.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
TFU Vader? Yes, he is.
How so? Because he won their fight? Not only was there some Dun Moch involved, but it was confirmed in TFUII that Vader underestimated him the first time, and didn't approach him cautiously enough. That's why in TFUII he couldn't beat Vader, despite having even crazier feats than he did in TFUI.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He had just TK'ed Maul and could've pressed his advantage but instead decided to aid Ventress by throwing her one of the lightsabers.
I already mentioned that. Obi-Wan was winning at first, then the tied turned and Maul started winning. Sounds like peers to me when the fight can go either way.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Not to mention that he'd been physically assaulted by the brother's beforehand. I imagine that took its toll on his endurance which lead to Maul landing his kicks.
Well given Kanan put up the best fight of his life against the GI after being tortured for a few days, I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make.
Of course Maul wasn't exactly in peak Saber fighting form either, given he hadn't been in a Saber fight in 10+ years. But he clearly began to get the hang of it pretty quickly after the fighting started.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Can I get the quote for that?
It's in Shadow Conspiracy. Will have to give it later.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Also, I think losing all of his allies and resources would lead to him giving in to despair rather then a renewed fervor. This is supported by Rebels Maul being described as "lost" and "broken" in Witwer's interviews.
Well that's a valid theory. As is the theory that his increase in Rage would fuel him further.
What's not theory though is that Maul felt at the peak of his power(to date) when he fought Sidious. So he did grow in power since he last fought Kenobi. Will provide that quote later. In the meantime you can get me the quote that proves ROTS Kenobi had improved since TCW S5.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
How so? Because he won their fight? Not only was there some Dun Moch involved, but it was confirmed in TFUII that Vader underestimated him the first time, and didn't approach him cautiously enough. That's why in TFUII he couldn't beat Vader, despite having even crazier feats than he did in TFUI.
The Dun Moch involved only helped Vader IIRC it allowed him to land strikes on Galen he otherwise wouldn't have in a monument of rage.
The novel does note Vader and Galen reassessed each other at the beginning of the fight trying to get a good grasp of what their opponent was capable of. Note Galen also didn't know Vader's full cpaabilities as is noted by the text.
The merit of their comparative feats are debatable as I've mentioned.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Maul outmatched Obi-Wan in Season 4, the latter's own words, after not being in a lightsaber fight for roughly a decade and he improved noticeably towards Season 5, as evidenced by Savage's admission of such.
He outmatched an Obi Wan who had just been physically beaten by him and his brother and after he had unbalanced him. Where does Savage ever say Maul grew as a duelist. As far as I know he only commented on him having grown stronger.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
I already mentioned that. Obi-Wan was winning at first, then the tied turned and Maul started winning. Sounds like peers to me when the fight can go either way.Well given Kanan put up the best fight of his life against the GI after being tortured for a few days, I'm not sure how much of a difference that would make.
Of course Maul wasn't exactly in peak Saber fighting form either, given he hadn't been in a Saber fight in 10+ years. But he clearly began to get the hang of it pretty quickly after the fighting started.
It's in Shadow Conspiracy. Will have to give it later.
Well that's a valid theory. As is the theory that his increase in Rage would fuel him further.
What's not theory though is that Maul felt at the peak of his power(to date) when he fought Sidious. So he did grow in power since he last fought Kenobi. Will provide that quote later. In the meantime you can get me the quote that proves ROTS Kenobi had improved since TCW S5.
I agree that they were peers I just think you're underestimating the circumstances at play during the fight.
That would be a good showing of Kanan's endurance or a gauge for how much more powerful he can become in a focused state. It doesn't have much to do with Obi Wan's capabilities.
He doesn't seem to be affected at all honestly and given Obi Wan as Old Ben was capable of providing Vader as of ANH a decent challenge along with examples such as Kanan, Ulic, Cerus and Jax Pavan who have all put down a lightsaber for a long period of time only to retain most of their skill when they it's called upon for them to use it.
Alright.
Sure.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He outmatched an Obi Wan who had just been physically beaten by him and his brother and after he had unbalanced him. Where does Savage ever say Maul grew as a duelist. As far as I know he only commented on him having grown stronger.
Yeah, without showing any kind of lasting injury nor is there any source which confirms it. Obi-Wan fought Maul before and after he was "unbalanced" so if he at the end of the fight, when he was clearly in a much calmer state, states that he's outmatched then that's an assessement looking at the fight as a hole, not a small part of it. Not to mention that Kenobi unleashing all his fury (according to StarWars.com) isn't going to be a negative influence over his fighting ability, the last time he did that, on Naboo against Maul, his fighting capabilities were amplified by it. Savage was just physically and skillwise defeated by Maul, which was the reason he commented that Maul had grown in 'power', referencing to his martial prowess.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Yeah, without showing any kind of lasting injury nor is there any source which confirms it. Obi-Wan fought Maul before and after he was "unbalanced" so if he at the end of the fight, when he was clearly in a much calmer state, states that he's outmatched then that's an assessement looking at the fight as a hole, not a small part of it. Not to mention that Kenobi unleashing all his fury (according to StarWars.com) isn't going to be a negative influence over his fighting ability, the last time he did that, on Naboo against Maul, his fighting capabilities were amplified by it. Savage was just physically and skillwise defeated by Maul, which was the reason he commented that Maul had grown in 'power', referencing to his martial prowess.
He was visibly struggling to get up the point he needed Ventress's assistance to stand... A source which confirms it? We don't need a source to confirm it when we see Obi Wan physically beaten in the episode itself.
Given this isn't the case in their other encounters between Maul and Kenobi and the other circumstances at play during the fight I would say your assumption is inaccurate. Especially because he doesn't say "I'm outmatched." He declares "We're outmatched." To Ventress after he had sacrificed an opportunity to press an advantage on Maul to aid her.
Maul outright states Kenobi was unbalanced and given his other performances against Maul where he wasn't unbalanced I'm inclined to believe it did hinder his performance.
There are many factors at play to that scene. It could be that his precognition and reflexes were superior and thus an indication of overall growth in force power, it could be referring to his literal physical strength given the state he was in when Savage found him or it could be referring to his strength as a combatant. Personally I believe it to be a mix of all 3 given the other various sources we have to draw on.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He was visibly struggling to get up the point he needed Ventress's assistance to stand... A source which confirms it? We don't need a source to confirm it when we see Obi Wan physically beaten in the episode itself.Given this isn't the case in their other encounters between Maul and Kenobi and the other circumstances at play during the fight I would say your assumption is inaccurate. Especially because he doesn't say "I'm outmatched." He declares "We're outmatched." To Ventress after he had sacrificed an opportunity to press an advantage on Maul to aid her.
Maul outright states Kenobi was unbalanced and given his other performances against Maul where he wasn't unbalanced I'm inclined to believe it did hinder his performance.
There are many factors at play to that scene. It could be that his precognition and reflexes were superior and thus an indication of overall growth in force power, it could be referring to his literal physical strength given the state he was in when Savage found him or it could be referring to his strength as a combatant. Personally I believe it to be a mix of all 3 given the other various sources we have to draw on.
Yes he has trouble but afterwards he's jumping around like nothings has happened and well both we're outmached, hardly changes that Obi-Wan was also outmached (note the "we're"😉. I think that a small opportunity at the very beginning of the fight would hardly influence the rest.
Yes Obi-Wan was unbalanced because he was letting his anger take over (or release his fury like StarWars.com likes to say it) but that doesn't mean his performance is going suffer because of it. Anakin was hardly balanced on the Invisible Hand yet he reached a power level which outright eclipsed anything he has ever done before. You can't really compare both their fights, when Obi-Wan unleashed all his rage he abandoned his defensive approach and went on a full offense while on Florrum we see him blocking a few strikes of Maul and then retreat the entire time. It's also quite logical that when an opponent is on the defensive the entire time, like Obi-Wan, a fight is going to last longer.
Maul could have improved in a 1000 areas, the point still stands that he improved as a combatant.
Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Yes he has trouble but afterwards he's jumping around like nothings has happened and well both we're outmached, hardly changes that Obi-Wan was also outmached (note the "we're"😉. I think that a small opportunity at the very beginning of the fight would hardly influence the rest.Yes Obi-Wan was unbalanced because he was letting his anger take over (or release his fury like StarWars.com likes to say it) but that doesn't mean his performance is going suffer because of it. Anakin was hardly balanced on the Invisible Hand yet he reached a power level which outright eclipsed anything he has ever done before. You can't really compare both their fights, when Obi-Wan unleashed all his rage he abandoned his defensive approach and went on a full offense while on Florrum we see him blocking a few strikes of Maul and then retreat the entire time. It's also quite logical that when an opponent is on the defensive the entire time, like Obi-Wan, a fight is going to last longer.
Maul could have improved in a 1000 areas, the point still stands that he improved as a combatant.
You know Force users constantly make up for physical exhaustion, old age or injuries with force augmentation correct? It doesn't take away the fact that those factors hamper them in a fight. I'm saying your bases for Obi Wan being outmatched because of that statement is flawed.
Given they were fighting evenly before that point with Maul only landing some kicks after Obi Wan's exhaustion set in I'd have to disagree. Anakin did underperform both in LoE and in his fight against Dooku when he was unbalanced. It was when he was unconsciously and then consciously drawing on his rage that allowed him to accomplish what he did. Or maybe it's an indication that their simply a defensive fight which makes sense given its Obi Wan? :/
No, the point stands that he could've improved in that area but that it's not confirmed and that your assumption of such is not backed up by anything but your own opinion.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I agree that they were peers I just think you're underestimating the circumstances at play during the fight.
Honestly Maul had more going against him in that first fight.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
That would be a good showing of Kanan's endurance or a gauge for how much more powerful he can become in a focused state. It doesn't have much to do with Obi Wan's capabilities.
It established how quickly Jedi can recover providing there's no serious injuries. And given Kenobi is a far superior Jedi to Kanan, and that Kenobi's torture wasn't anywhere near as bad, I think the Kanan's feat is quite relevant to measuring the Kenobi's level disadvantage against Maul in that first fight.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
He doesn't seem to be affected at all honestly and given Obi Wan as Old Ben was capable of providing Vader as of ANH a decent challenge along with examples such as Kanan, Ulic, Cerus and Jax Pavan who have all put down a lightsaber for a long period of time only to retain most of their skill when they it's called upon for them to use it.
Not the same at all tbh. Maul was basically in a straight jacket for the last 10+ years walking around on Spider legs, and just got these new Robotic legs he had to get used to.
You can say Maul didn't "seem" effected but then neither did Obi-Wan seem effected by the slapping around he got prior to the fight.
But logic dictates Maul had a massive massive disadvantage fighting in that episode.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Alright.Sure.
"Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he'd been in Sidious's presence, before Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Umbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.
But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious"
^ This makes it clear Maul had been growing more powerful throughout TCW, from the point of his Revival up until Savage's death- "...and his training of Savage had all strengthened him."
Now your turn for the quote that proves Kenobi kept improving from TCW S5, all the way unto ROTS.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Honestly Maul had more going against him in that first fight.It established how quickly Jedi can recover providing there's no serious injuries. And given Kenobi is a far superior Jedi to Kanan, and that Kenobi's torture wasn't anywhere near as bad, I think the Kanan's feat is quite relevant to measuring the Kenobi's level disadvantage against Maul in that first fight.
Not the same at all tbh. Maul was basically in a straight jacket for the last 10+ years walking around on Spider legs, and just got these new Robotic legs he had to get used to.
You can say Maul didn't "seem" effected but then neither did Obi-Wan seem effected by the slapping around he got prior to the fight.
But logic dictates Maul had a massive massive disadvantage fighting in that episode.
"Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he'd been in Sidious's presence, before Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Umbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.
But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious"^ This makes it clear Maul had been growing more powerful throughout TCW, from the point of his Revival up until Savage's death- "...and his training of Savage had all strengthened him."
Debatable.
I don't believe base durability is a physical area that's passively enhanced by the Force and if it is then while Kanan and Obi Wan have both demonstrated crazy constitution feats I don't believe Obi Wan's supercede Kanan's by all that great a margin if at all despite being a superior force user. I.E. Kanan has superiors base durability.
Fair point on the legs. I still stand by the notion that Force users can go for extended periods without using a lightsaber and then be capable of using it with most of their skill after that period as is demonstrated in the examples I provided above.
Fair enough.
I'll have the LoE quote when I get home.