Originally posted by DarthAnt66
As made clear by commonly referencing Avellone and Gillard in debates, I take author intent seriously, and it's clear when those quotes were written they weren't imagining an immortal Sith Lord who has the power of eight-thousand lesser Sith. I'm not sure what the issue is, since I have SWTOR Vitiate and ROTS Palpatine on the same level anyway. It's not like I have Vitiate absurdly above.
Do you really think that the creators of every encyclopedic blurb you use were carefully vetting their offhanded sentences to make sure that they produced an acceptable vs. hierarchy?
But as for the authorial intents behind the greatest of all time quote, I think you're missing the point. They did intend for Sidious to be the most powerful ever, but that intent was indifferent to who came before him. Gillard probably doesn't know most of the ancient sith in the EU, but that doesn't impact his intentions, because Sidious's status as the most powerful ever is itself thematically important independent of the particulars. It's thematically meaningful for him to be the culmination of the sith order and the first to rule the galaxy. If we go by your criteria that the authors in question needed a strict understanding of every sith ever to live before him to take their comments seriously, then such statements would be impractical in the first place.
It wasn't "the publisher," it was just someone in the marketing section.
And I'm sure a lot of stuff in your encyclopedias and kotor were made by either similarly ranked people, or rather offhandedly and without deep thought. It doesn't change the fact that they're there.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Follow the thread, Sasukedc. I was referring to all the quotes saying Palpatine was the GOAT, not Plagueis' blurb.
Well, let's go back to your own defense of authorial intent; do you really think that Luceno meant to deceive us with Plagueis's talk of having surpassed all before him, and that he really meant to show Plagueis's delusion or something? That strikes me as rather unlikely.
Follow the thread, Sasukedc. I was referring to all the quotes saying Palpatine was the GOAT, not Plagueis' blurb.
You addressed the blurb in the second half of your post, so I'd inferred that it was the subject of the first half as well. My bad.
Regardless, your stance on the blurb itself is still faulty at best. The question of who wrote it doesn't really matter. It's still published, official material, and it's supported by the text. There are no legitimate grounds to deny it's authenticity. You're just making excuses because you don't like the answer.
In other words...
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yet you have Vader over Caedus. mmm
Not necessarily; I'm reserving judgement until a certain someone finishes that long overdue Jacen Solo respect thread.
Either way, it's not like my conflicted thoughts on the matter are in spite of the Invincible blurb. The quote says that Caedus' command of the Force surpasses Vader's, but what that means could have several interpretations. It could very well be, for instance, that Caedus possesses a greater mastery of the Force than Vader, but is inferior as a warrior. On the other hand, the claim that Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord who has ever lived is more conclusive--and even interpreting it liberally, I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that Vitiate could overcome a power gap via superior merit as a combatant.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not necessarily; I'm reserving judgement until a certain someone finishes that long overdue Jacen Solo respect thread.Either way, it's not like my conflicted thoughts on the matter are in spite of the Invincible blurb. The quote says that Caedus' command of the Force surpasses Vader's, but what that means could have several interpretations. It could very well be, for instance, that Caedus possesses a greater mastery of the Force than Vader, but is inferior as a warrior. On the other hand, the claim that Plagueis is the most powerful Sith Lord who has ever lived is more conclusive--and even interpreting it liberally, I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that Vitiate could overcome a power gap by his merit as a combatant.
Yeah, that's fair. Publisher's blurbs count; but we're not saying they're the end all be all. There's a middle ground between taking it as gospel and just dismissing it out of hand.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, that's fair. Publisher's blurbs count; but we're not saying they're the end all be all. There's a middle ground between taking it as gospel and just dismissing it out of hand.
That's not even what I meant, frankly. I meant that there's a difference between interpretation and dismissal. These passages exist and are official material; until further notice, that isn't up for debate. What they mean, however, could be.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's not even what I meant, frankly. I meant that there's a difference between interpretation and dismissal. These passages exist and are official material; until further notice, that isn't up for debate. What they mean, however, could be.
Yeah I know, but to be frank, if you're going to put Vader over Caedus, you're essentially playing mental gymnastics with the blurb to fit with the conclusion you would've come up with independently of it. And I think it's fair to do that if the evidence against its most clear interpretation is overwhelming, but in the case of Plagueis vs. Vitiate, I don't think it is.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrOJ9Sl82P4&t=10m02s
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nobody denied that he was the strongest of his time; the question is by how much, and whether it puts him above Plagueis. Barely besting Revan while amped by a nexus is not as impressive to any of us as intimidating Palpatine.
Vitiate was capable of defeating Revan and his allies (Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik), collectively, in single combat; this should tell you something about his raw power and abilities.
Revan is commonly assumed to be approaching Yoda-level strength as of his Reborn story arc. Revan had become the most powerful Jedi in galactic history and nobody could rival and/or surpass him until Yoda in his prime years. More importantly, Revan was more than a Jedi; an environment - strong in the Dark Side - did not hinder his effectiveness because he could draw strength from even the Dark Side.
Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
^^^
That is why Revan presented significant challenge to Vitiate in his own turf.
---
You don't fancy chances of Yoda against Vitiate in Dromund Kaas, do you?
FYI, Dromund Kaas significantly hindered the effectiveness of all (Legacy era) Jedi who visited it. Even Luke Skywalker was not immune to its negative influence.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Untrue, as Beni pointed out, but even if it were, who cares? Over the course of centuries he apparently created a nexus, whereas Plagueis essentially created a dark side nexus across the entire cosmos by meditating for a few months.BTW, if you want to talk atmospheric conditions, you do realize that Plagueis was able to alter said conditions by a greater degree just by arriving there, right?
Dromund Kaas was somewhat strong in the Dark Side before but not a nexus environment on the whole. Vitiate corrupted its environment further, to the extent that notions of day and night became irrelevant, natural threats intensified (i.e. storms occurred more frequently and flora and fauna became more dangerous) and the entire planet became unusually strong in the Dark Side. More importantly, these shifts were permanent.
Therefore, Vitiate's ability to alter an environment dwarfs that of Darth Plagueis in both scale and potency. One reason for Vitiate's superiority in this area is that he is a master of Sith Sorcery and similar arts.
Your assumption that the corruption process of Dromund Kaas spanned centuries, is also misplaced. The time-span of this corruption effort is unknown at the moment but no source implies that it took Vitiate centuries to accomplish it.
Darth Plagueis also possessed the ability to alter environmental conditions but he could not compete with Vitiate in this area due to lack of expertise in the field of Sith Sorcery. He (temporarily) affected weather conditions in a part of Naboo. You don't think that the entire planet experienced intensified Winter, do you?
Moreover, whether Darth Plagueis's inferred manipulation was a product of his mere presence or some degree of effort was involved behind it, is left to the reader's imagination. On the whole, this feat is too ambiguous to quantify.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was incredibly precocious, yes, but this doesn't guarantee that his ceiling matches Plagueis's, unless if you think Kyle Katarn has more potential than Anakin.
The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
While I cannot quantify 'supremely strong' remark in the cross-era context, it certainly makes it clear that Vitiate had extraordinary potential and we cannot rule out the possibility of Vitiate's potential being greater than that of Darth Plagueis.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
He invited them to his fortress, and so obviously had prep time. If he could replicate it on a whim, why does he never use it again, but instead employs far more cumbersome moves?
Vitiate is stated to have explored the Dark Side at a greater depth than anybody else, so expect lot of surprises from him. Unless you mistakenly assume that Force lightning is the only offensive option at his disposal. Doesn't makes sense or does it?
You can check this blog to learn more about his powers: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/valkorion-respect-thread-1556713/
I am not interested in writing an essay about his abilities.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
He intimidated Palpatine, yeah.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis sustained injuries that would have killed most, and still beat them (who were highly trained and experienced in fighting Force users). Mind you, this was before he boosted his midichlorian count and unbalanced the Force.
A battlefield is a brutal environment, my friend. Why do you think Palpatine felt that Darth Malgus's accomplishments as a warrior are largely unparalleled in history and perceived him as one of his strongest predecessors? One of those reasons is that his defensive abilities were really good.
You might have noticed that Revan also had excellent defensive abilities. This explains his incredible performance in the battlefield and is one of the factors that enabled him to give Vitiate a taste of his own medicine for a while. With the exception of Revan, Vitiate floored any other opponent who dared to cross his path.
You could be really strong in the Force but you would terribly loose in a major confrontation unless you hone your abilities in the defensive applications of the Force. Revan and Darth Malgus understood this fact really well.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I mean he was willing to go through all the effort to create some lightning storms on DM. That's the product of centuries of sorcery; Plagueis exceeds that just by arriving on a planet, and then unbalances the Force itself by meditating really hard.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Sure, Vitiate altered the balance in the same way everyone does; but the Force itself did not feel the need to conjure the Chosen One to stop him.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
He got one initial strike in on Revan, yes. But then his subsequent lightning attacks were batted back at him, and he had to resort to charging his energies.
Vitiate's so-called charging effort lasted only an instant because he had to attack Revan before the latter could close the gap and score a hit on him. You make it sound like as if Vitiate had a minute to perform that act.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Oooooohhhh.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Scourge who?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
But you're forgetting the part where he gets knocked on his ass by Revan, almost blindsided by T3-M4, knocked on his ass again by Revan, and then blindsided by Meetra. For all his power, he just isn't a really good fighter.
Palpatine wasn't ever knocked on his @ss by someone close to him in raw power, like ever. I wonder if Yoda had support in this confrontation... mmm
Originally posted by The Ellimist
In other words, you're going to dismiss evidence you don't like for no reason but your personal say-so. I guess we can just dismiss SWTOR altogether, since it's just there for Bioware to make money. 👆
I mentioned a reason right below that statement. Are you paying attention?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was never labeled as such, but nice try.Regardless, while publisher's blurbs don't need to be taken as infallible, they can't just be dismissed on some flimsy basis that you think publishers are marketers or something.
If the dark side's most powerful master can capture the ultimate secret, the Sith will never die—and neither will Darth Bane.
From the back cover of Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
It's a bit ambiguous as to whether the Ravager resurrection happened before or after ousting Traya, yeah. Although it's almost certainly the latter.
It's also worth noting that his Drain powers - ie. Katarr - only enhance his strength "for a time". At least, those of you who believe in the Drain not being able to be learned have to admit that. Still, he's pre-prime when he resurrects the Ravager, indeed.
Later it would be said by Naboo and Gungan alike that they couldn’t recall a colder winter than the one that followed Hego Damask’s autumnal visit to their world. The rivers and even the falls below Theed froze; the rolling plains and tall forests were blanketed three meters deep with snow; plasmic quakes rocked the Gallo Mountains and the Lake Country, the Holy Places and the undersea city of Otoh Gunga; and many of the egresses of the underwaterways that hollowed the planet were blocked by ice floes.-- Darth Plagueis
The fact that the worst winter ever was caused despite Plagueis visiting it in autumn makes it even better, lol.
And the quote above seems to suggest that it's planetary, but even if not, winter affects half of a planet at any given time. So it's still half-planetary, which is a lot for just walking around on a planet.
Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that the worst winter ever was caused despite Plagueis visiting it in autumn makes it even better, lol.And the quote above seems to suggest that it's planetary, but even if not, winter affects half of a planet at any given time. So it's still half-planetary, which is a lot for just walking around on a planet.
So the entire world experiences a single season at a time? Seriously?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is a good feat, never said otherwise. But Vitiate's feat is on another level.
Vitiate's feat was caused by centuries of rituals and dark side practice. Plagueis' was caused by visiting the world.
So the entire world experiences a single season at a time? Seriously?
I'll post it again. If you can't read, you're not worth my time.
And the quote above seems to suggest that it's planetary, but even if not, winter affects half of a planet at any given time. So it's still half-planetary, which is a lot for just walking around on a planet.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Vitiate's feat was caused by centuries of rituals and dark side practice. Plagueis' was caused by visiting the world.
And a key difference you continue to overlook is that Vitiate's corruption effort was permanent.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll post it again. If you can't read, you're not worth my time.
That is not a planetary-scale feat, simple. And we only have the perspective of some locals to evaluate it. They could be exaggerating.
I can't believe a cold winter is being used as a feat for Plagueis. That's just an extremely common narrative trick. The two aren't linked outside of creating atmosphere. Cold winters occurring to highlight bad shit happens all the time.
Next someone will use it being a dark, stormy night as evidence. 🙄