Great Battles Vol 1: Darth Plagueis vs. Vitiate (Revan novel)

Started by DarthAnt6614 pages

Originally posted by ares834
And why couldn't that be under the tutelage of Kreia?

You'd have to be more specific on what "that" is.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You'd have to be more specific on what "that" is.

What you stated. Nihilus gradually devouring larger and larger populations. Why must he have begun to do this prior to meeting Kreia?

Originally posted by ares834
What you stated. Nihilus gradually devouring larger and larger populations. Why must he have begun to do this prior to meeting Kreia?
because as he fed, his hunger grew and he had to feed more.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
because as he fed, his hunger grew and he had to feed more.

And? Yes, he has to devour more beings. That doesn't indicate he has to devour dozens of people at a time only that he has to feed more often. As the text notes, "the shorter the satisfaction lasts".

Yeah I'm still not seeing any evidence that Nihilius "feeding relentlessly" involved him moving off-world. On the other hand looking over Unseen, Unheard there are dead crew members floating around, so I guess he didn't need them to pilot the ship.

Originally posted by ares834
What you stated. Nihilus gradually devouring larger and larger populations. Why must he have begun to do this prior to meeting Kreia?

The above states Nihilus began consuming more and more even prior to Kreia's teachings.

Thus, I'm under the impression he was killing dozens to hundreds, but Kreia helped him expand that to thousands.

However, I think my interactions with Beni are blurring my arguments here.

Let's look at the timeline again:

- Darth Nihilus opened himself up to the disturbance of the Mass Shadow Generator.

- Darth Nihilus was on the world of Malachor V and began draining its last survivors.

- Darth Nihilus apprenticed himself to Darth Traya, who taught him how to consume populations.

- Darth Nihilus destroys the planet of Katarr after being notified by Atris of a Jedi Conclave gathering.

So, of these, which one would Darth Nihilus escaping "imprisonment" on Malachor V logically fall between?

It's clearly after draining the survivors but before he apprentices himself to Darth Traya, if you ask me.

He wasn't "imprisoned" on Malachor V during Kreia's teachings, obviously, since he learned how to drain to new heights.

This implies Darth Nihilus was employing his techniques out upon the galaxy and mastering it via experience.

Obviously again note that Darth Nihilus' power is in direct correlation with his hunger, not mastery.

Originally posted by ares834
And? Yes, he has to devour more beings. That doesn't indicate he has to devour dozens of people at a time only that he has to feed more often. As the text notes, "the shorter the satisfaction lasts".
it doesn't indicate what you said either. It just means more and exponentially more, it's subject to interpretation.

That Nihilus wasn't imprisoned on Malachor under Kreia's tutelage makes sense, but if he's capable of tearing a ship from the crushing weight of Malachor's gravity, holding that ship together and piloting it through the cosmos with with the Force alone, he's obviously already somehow become a Force user of titanic proportions.

Kreia improved his mastery over Force drain but not his telekinetic abilities, and though he consumed planets after the fact its stated in the KOTORCG that the "dark side macerated him even faster", and we know he needed this Force energy to sustain his own "life energies". Given that is there any evidence to suggest that he actually grew considerably more powerful outside of the scope of drain?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

The above states Nihilus began consuming more and more even prior to Kreia's teachings.

However, I think my interactions with Beni are blurring my arguments here.

Let's look at the timeline again:

- Darth Nihilus was opened himself up to the disturbance of the Mass Shadow Generator.

- Darth Nihilus was on the world of Malachor V and began draining its last survivors.

- Darth Nihilus apprenticed himself to Darth Traya, who taught him how to consume populations.

- Darth Nihilus destroys the planet of Katarr after being notified by Atris of a Jedi Conclave gathering.

So, of these, which one would Darth Nihilus escaping "imprisonment" on Malachor V logically fall between?

Obviously it's after draining the survivors but before he apprentices himself to Darth Traya, if you ask me.

He wasn't "imprisoned" on Malachor V during Kreia's teachings, obviously, since he learned how to drain to new heights.

This implies Darth Nihilus was employing his techniques out upon the galaxy and mastering it via experience.

Obviously again note that Darth Nihilus' power is in direct correlation with no mastery, but hunger.

Using the word "obviously" repeatedly does not make is so. Just because Kreia taught him how to drain a planet does not indicate he had done so at that point.

Now I won't say that Nihilus didn't raise the Ravager prior to meeting Kreia, you've brought up some compelling points. My problem is it seems you are stating it as fact when, I feel, the evidence is not strong enough for such a claim.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
it doesn't indicate what you said either. It just means more and exponentially more, it's subject to interpretation.

It certainly does indicate exactly what I said. Could it also indicate him draining multiple people at a time? Perhaps, but what I claimed is straight up said in the text.

Originally posted by ares834
My problem is it seems you are stating it as fact when, I feel, the evidence is not strong enough for such a claim.

I found it obvious since there's no other logical alternative based on what we know.

What specifically did you quote.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I found it obvious since there's no other logical alternative based on what we know.

Sure there is. Kreia teaches Nihilus how to use drain. After she is ousted, Nihilus is left trapped on Malachor as Kreia has escaped in her own ship. He then raises the fleet.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
What specifically did you quote.

"the shorter the satisfaction lasts"

Originally posted by ares834
Sure there is. Kreia teaches Nihilus how to use drain. After she is ousted, Nihilus is left trapped on Malachor as Kreia has escaped in her own ship. He then raises the fleet.

"the shorter the satisfaction lasts"

And why, pray tell, does that indicate exactly what you said?

Originally posted by ares834
Sure there is. Kreia teaches Nihilus how to use drain. After she is ousted, Nihilus is left trapped on Malachor as Kreia has escaped in her own ship. He then raises the fleet.

Didn't the main Jedi Purge take place prior to Kreia's exile, though? If so, then Nihilus should already have his fleet, since it's said he went around on it and killed everyone.

Sure there is. Kreia teaches Nihilus how to use drain. After she is ousted, Nihilus is left trapped on Malachor as Kreia has escaped in her own ship. He then raises the fleet.

I think you have your chronology mixed up.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Didn't the main Jedi Purge take place prior to Kreia's exile, though? If so, then Nihilus should already have his fleet, since it's said he went around on it and killed everyone.

The whole thing has been so inconsistent it's hard to tell. Even the campaign guide muddies the waters with it's short summaries of the events. However, in the game at least it seems the majority of the Jedi were killed when Nihilus attacked Katarr as, according to certain sources, there were barely more than a hundred Jedi at the end of the Jedi Civil War and Nilhilus wiped out a hundred Jedi at Katarr.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I think you have your chronology mixed up.

Not at all.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
And why, pray tell, does that indicate exactly what you said?

If the satisfaction from feeding last shorter then he has to feed more often. Which is what I said.

The Ravager is the only ship present during the devastation of Katarr, so he didn't appear to have a fleet yet. It's also pretty beat up and without a crew, despite by Ant's interpretation having been in action for several years. I'd say that lends credence to Ares' point.

Originally posted by ares834
The whole thing has been so inconsistent it's hard to tell. Even the campaign guide muddies the waters with it's short summaries of the events. However, in the game at least it seems the majority of the Jedi were killed when Nihilus attacked Katarr as, according to certain sources, there were barely more than a hundred Jedi at the end of the Jedi Civil War and Nilhilus wiped out a hundred Jedi at Katarr.

Well according to the SWTOR's codex of Kreia (http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/the-entity-warrior/1150/), it's stated that she "all but eradicated the Jedi Order."

That implies her, Sion, and Nihilus all played crucial roles in destroying the remaining Jedi. Plus, didn't Katarr take place prior to Kreia's ousting as well?

I admit though that the amount of Jedi still alive varies by source. I recall KotOR 1 saying the entire Jedi Order fought in the battle of Lehon, or something.

Originally posted by ares834
Not at all.
oh well if you say so, excuse me.

If the satisfaction from feeding last shorter then he has to feed more often. Which is what I said.
or he has to feed on more and more because it would last longer, hence your interpretation is only one of many.