Focused but not enraged Anakin: Dooku level with sabers, slightly below Dooku with Force.
Enraged Anakin: Above Dooku level, both sabers and Force.
Plain Anakin [as we see him most of the time in TCW]: Slightly above TCW Kenobi in both sabers and Force.
Zone: Sidious/Yoda level with sabers, above Dooku level with Force.
Originally posted by Petrus
Focused but not enraged Anakin: Dooku level with sabers, slightly below Dooku with Force.Enraged Anakin: Above Dooku level, both sabers and Force.
Plain Anakin [as we see him most of the time in TCW]: Slightly above TCW Kenobi in both sabers and Force.
Zone: Sidious/Yoda level with sabers, above Dooku level with Force.
That's pretty good.
Originally posted by Petrus
Focused but not enraged Anakin: Dooku level with sabers, slightly below Dooku with Force.Enraged Anakin: Above Dooku level, both sabers and Force.
Plain Anakin [as we see him most of the time in TCW]: Slightly above TCW Kenobi in both sabers and Force.
Zone: Sidious/Yoda level with sabers, above Dooku level with Force.
Petrus, your "plain" Anakin refers to TCW Anakin, not his RotS incarnation.
Anyway, presumably in a serious fight, Anakin will be focused. And I contest the notion that he's merely Dooku's equal in that mindset - he was winning, a fact that fits with his progressive performances against him in TCW, and several in and out of universe sources putting him on Yoda's tier.
Thanks, Kurk and Thor.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Petrus, your "plain" Anakin refers to TCW Anakin, not his RotS incarnation.
Yes, I specified as much. I think ROTS Anakin in a 'plain' state is slightly above ROTS Kenobi in both areas.
Anyway, presumably in a serious fight, Anakin will be focused.
Eh, a lot of his fights in TCW are serious [life or death, or at least with big implications] and he doesn't seem to be truly focused or pushing himself to the utmost of his abilities, imho.
And I contest the notion that he's merely Dooku's equal in that mindset - he was winning, a fact that fits with his progressive performances against him in TCW, and several in and out of universe sources putting him on Yoda's tier.
Aren't you referring to Zonakin when you say he was winning, though? I think End-TCW Anakin is still below ROTS Anakin, but yes, he was pushing Dooku when focused. I could be convinced that an End-TCW focused Anakin could be slightly above Dooku, but for now, this is my order.
The growth from TCW to RotS for Anakin is described on the SW database as massive, IIRC, which makes sense given that we need a new meaning to Anakin's "my powers have doubled since the last time we met" comment, and to Dooku's astonishment at Anakin's power in the RotS novelization.
And Anakin was winning before the Zone too. The only times he was losing were win he was actively restraining himself.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The growth from TCW to RotS for Anakin is described on the SW database as massive, IIRC, which makes sense given that we need a new meaning to Anakin's "my powers have doubled since the last time we met" comment, and to Dooku's astonishment at Anakin's power in the RotS novelization.And Anakin was winning before the Zone too. The only times he was losing were win he was actively restraining himself.
Yeah, that's why I said so. Kenobi was also superior in ROTS.
And yeah, I think S5/6 TCW Anakin in a focused state would indeed give Dooku a run for his money, at least.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Really Haggis? How interesting. Mind posting some of them since this seems to be a stance your in support of and you obviously wouldn't unless you had seen the evidence for yourself. 🙂
There isn't as much as I suspected. However, I'll start with this one first:
"'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."
- Nick Gillard in StarWars.com Episode III Production Article
While this isn't a direct placement on Anakin being superior to Vader, it can be useful in presenting a case for Anakin's superiority in skill. While I certainly wouldn't personally tier Anakin to be equals to the likes of Yoda and Sidious, considering he's placed closer to their level than the likes of Obi-Wan and the fact that Vader has little hype to suggest he ever reached such a high level of skill then one would assume Skywalker's superiority in this area. Unless I'm missing something to suggest otherwise, then please share.
Now, the second statement:
"And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.
- Revenge of the Sith
Note that this quote refers back rather than what could have been, thus wasn't speaking of potential. The power he used to have is only a 'memory', suggesting that it's something of the past and what he once had but can no longer employ.
Then we have Lucas claiming that a lot of the powers Anakin did possessed were diminished when put in the suit, suggesting that Vader was weaker:
"So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point"
- George Lucas to Vanity Fair Magazine
And even 19 years later during the events of a New Hope, Vader, along with Kenobi, were noted as inferior to their 'former selves':
"When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves"
- Star Wars Insider #62: Fightsaber
This establishes Anakin's superiority to Darth Vader as of A New Hope. However, one might argue this quote is contradicted by the Beware the Sith quote (which is more up to date), stating that Vader as of a New Hope was apparently more powerful:
"Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and more powerful."
- Beware The Sith
However, this quote simply states that Vader has grown in power since the last duel on Mustafar. However considering Mustafar Anakin was emotionally hindered to a decent degree this doesn't necessarily scale him to base RoTS Anakin.
Now, of course Vader improved by the time of RoTJ from ANH, of course and there are statements to suggest this. However, there is nothing in which I have seen that suggest said power growth surpassed the base power of Anakin by RoTS. Some may point to the statement in the Return of the Jedi novel which reads:
"His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor"
- Return of the Jedi
Firstly, the quote seems to suggest that Vader was feeling this power flow through him because of his close presence with Palpatine. Secondly, even if that weren't the case that Palpatine's presence didn't affect him and he did just feel more powerful than he did before, this quote was from Vader's point of view. Considering that Vader tended to speak in third person when regarding his past self, I doubt he was including his Jedi power when claiming he felt more powerful than he did before. This is backed up in a source:
"His anger kept him alive, and he was forever scarred not only by his wounds but also by betrayal. Vader abandoned his former identity."
- Star Wars Databank: Darth Vader
Regardless of these, from a feat on feat analysis, Anakin Skywalker impresses me more, especially, and at the very least, in skill.
You're missing the fact that sources have confirmed Vader's growth in power and via basic common sense/logic Vader has grown more skilled due to gaining more knowledge and combat experience over the course of nearly 2 decades. The only reason Vader would be a lesser combatant would be his reduced agility.
The first three quotes you bring up are referencing potential and one is from Vader's perspective just after he's been placed into his suit and when he's deeply depressed. As I'm sure you're well aware the mental state of a Force user affects their ability especially in regards to Anakin. By the end of the novel his outlook has improved drastically as has his performance against the Jedi.
The fourth quote is a retcon as you acknowledged.
It does not state he's grown in power since their last duel on Mustafar. It states Vader in general has grown in power. You can interpret this one of two ways, It referencing Vader as his title and thus only take into account his time as a Sith Lord or Vader as the individual he is with them simply referencing the latter which is the stance I take personally.
I'm sorry, but given the fact that Vader mused on his power as Anakin in RoDV I doubt he would refrain from taking into account his capabilities as Anakin in Return of the Jedi. Also, unless you have evidence of Sidious amping Vader in that scene I don't see any reason for Sidious to have done so and thus don't view it as a valid assumption.
And I can say the same about Vader and I do because it's true. Anakin has never replicated feats on par with Vader's own in a standard state. Hell, if you take into account the TFU I/II cutscenes ( which I know you do ) he's never shown a superior feat to Vader's best in any state.
Originally posted by RHaggis
There isn't as much as I suspected. However, I'll start with this one first:[B]"'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."
- Nick Gillard in StarWars.com Episode III Production Article
While this isn't a direct placement on Anakin being superior to Vader, it can be useful in presenting a case for Anakin's superiority in skill. While I certainly wouldn't personally tier Anakin to be equals to the likes of Yoda and Sidious, considering he's placed closer to their level than the likes of Obi-Wan and the fact that Vader has little hype to suggest he ever reached such a high level of skill then one would assume Skywalker's superiority in this area. Unless I'm missing something to suggest otherwise, then please share.
Now, the second statement:
"And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.
- Revenge of the Sith
Note that this quote refers back rather than what could have been, thus wasn't speaking of potential. The power he used to have is only a 'memory', suggesting that it's something of the past and what he once had but can no longer employ.
Then we have Lucas claiming that a lot of the powers Anakin did possessed were diminished when put in the suit, suggesting that Vader was weaker:
"So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point"
- George Lucas to Vanity Fair Magazine
And even 19 years later during the events of a New Hope, Vader, along with Kenobi, were noted as inferior to their 'former selves':
"When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader on the Death Star, both combatants know that they are but shadows of their former selves"
- Star Wars Insider #62: Fightsaber
This establishes Anakin's superiority to Darth Vader as of A New Hope. However, one might argue this quote is contradicted by the Beware the Sith quote (which is more up to date), stating that Vader as of a New Hope was apparently more powerful:
"Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and more powerful."
- Beware The Sith
However, this quote simply states that Vader has grown in power since the last duel on Mustafar. However considering Mustafar Anakin was emotionally hindered to a decent degree this doesn't necessarily scale him to base RoTS Anakin.
Now, of course Vader improved by the time of RoTJ from ANH, of course and there are statements to suggest this. However, there is nothing in which I have seen that suggest said power growth surpassed the base power of Anakin by RoTS. Some may point to the statement in the Return of the Jedi novel which reads:
"His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor"
- Return of the Jedi
Firstly, the quote seems to suggest that Vader was feeling this power flow through him because of his close presence with Palpatine. Secondly, even if that weren't the case that Palpatine's presence didn't affect him and he did just feel more powerful than he did before, this quote was from Vader's point of view. Considering that Vader tended to speak in third person when regarding his past self, I doubt he was including his Jedi power when claiming he felt more powerful than he did before. This is backed up in a source:
"His anger kept him alive, and he was forever scarred not only by his wounds but also by betrayal. Vader abandoned his former identity."
- Star Wars Databank: Darth Vader
Regardless of these, from a feat on feat analysis, Anakin Skywalker impresses me more, especially, and at the very least, in skill. [/B]
Personally, I find Vader far more impressive than he was as Anakin. The numerous statements that say he became more powerful and his feats make it pretty obvious he's > Anakin, at least to me. You should check out the Darth Vader comics, some of the stuff he does in those are beyond anything Anakin has done.
Originally posted by Rebel95
You also forgot the quote from Lords of the Sith, saying that his injuries and suffering had strengthened his connection to the force and the dark side.Personally, I find Vader far more impressive than he was as Anakin. The numerous statements that say he became more powerful and his feats make it pretty obvious he's > Anakin, at least to me. You should check out the Darth Vader comics, some of the stuff he does in those are beyond anything Anakin has done.
👆