Lol beni, look at how upset you're getting. It's pretty easy to tell what a shadow of his former self in the article Fightsaber is referring to, and it has nothing to do with meditation or attunement to the living force. Anyway, Old Ben is vastly inferior to his prime self in any manner relating to combat - obviously and that includes physical augmentation. His comment is referring to his ability to transcend the physical plane as a Force spirit and nothing else.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust"Lol beni, look at how upset you're getting."? That says a lot more about your emotional state than mine. 😬
Lol beni, look at how upset you're getting. It's pretty easy to tell what a shadow of his former self in the article Fightsaber is referring to, and it has nothing to do with meditation or attunement to the living force. Anyway, Old Ben is vastly inferior to his prime self in any manner relating to combat - obviously and that includes physical augmentation. His comment is referring to his ability to transcend the physical plane as a Force spirit and nothing else.
Forgive me if rebutting your points frustrates you so. Moving on, yes it is easy, namely what the source goes on to describe, that in Kenobi's case he is old and out of practice. None of that precludes him being a less powerful Force user, instead as the saying goes, with age comes wisdom.
Kenobi has had plenty of time to meditate and reflect on the Force, expanding his understanding and therefore command over it, and his ability to transcend death reflects that he has done so. Under those circumstances I'm struggling to find a reason for a decline.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Lol beni, look at how upset you're getting."? That says a lot more about your emotional state than mine. 😬
I have little reason to be emotional about the coming and goings of Vader's reputation on KMC. I'm not the one emotionally invested in wanking a lost cause who can't even defeat out-of-practice old men (Kenobi) and people who might not even be on the level of ATOC Anikin (ROTJ Luke), those have simply been the ground realties rooted in the highest order of canon and Legends since day one. People lowering him to favour Dooku just means they see the same.
Forgive me if rebutting your points frustrates you so.
You haven't
Moving on, yes it is easy, namely what the source goes on to describe, that in Kenobi's case he is old and out of practice.
Concession accepted
None of that precludes him being a less powerful Force user, instead as the saying goes, with age comes wisdom.
I haven't argued that Kenobi is less powerful Force user when it comes to say, Telekinesis , but rather that he's had a sharp in any manner relating to physical combat, that is the most logical conclusion and one that's backed up by several objective sources addressing the matter. More importantly, you haven't been able to prove why Kenobi is more powerful, that quote certainly doesn't imply anything that you'd want it to.
Kenobi has had plenty of time to meditate and reflect on the Force, expanding his understanding and therefore command over it, and his ability to transcend death reflects that he has done so. Under those circumstances I'm struggling to find a reason for a decline.\
It's equally possible that his continued practice of reaching the spiritual plain, has reduced his ability to control the Force physically. But that doesn't matter because all the Source material confirms his power relating to combat have diminished.
Originally posted by ZiggystardustThen why the salty commentary? 😂
I have little reason to be emotional about the coming and goings of Vader's reputation on KMC. I'm not the one emotionally invested in wanking a lost cause who can't even defeat out-of-practice old men (Kenobi) and people who might not even be on the level of ATOC Anikin (ROTJ Luke), those have simply been the ground realties rooted in the highest order of canon and Legends since day one. People lowering him to favour Dooku just means they see the same.
I haven't argued that Kenobi is less powerful Force user when it comes to say, Telekinesis , but rather that he's had a sharp in any manner relating to physical combat, that is the most logical conclusion and one that's backed up by several objective sources addressing the matter.So? Are we not discussing Dooku's ability to telekinetically dominate Kenobi compared to Vader?
More importantly, you haven't been able to prove why Kenobi is more powerful, that quote certainly doesn't imply anything that you'd want it to.The inference is there to be made, the fact that Vader simply has better feats than Dooku (as well as being confirmed to be stronger than him in Canon) only reinforces it as the correct one.
It's equally possible that his continued practice of reaching the spiritual plain, has reduced his ability to control the Force physically.Fanon lol. There is no basis for that in any source.
But that doesn't matter because all the Source material confirms his power relating to combat have diminished.And you appear to have failed in grasping that that's completely besides the point, lmao.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Then why the salty commentary? 😂 So? Are we not discussing Dooku's ability to telekinetically dominate Kenobi compared to Vader?
I stated that Kenobi might not have declined in the realm of various Force powers, his augmentation is as matter of fact, is not what it use to be, but his TK might be the of a similar grade in his prime years - but the problem here is that retaining that level of power simply isn't good enough to prevent a raggid ragdolling from Ol Dookster.
The inference is there to be made, the fact that Vader simply has better feats than Dooku
He doesn't.
(as well as being confirmed to be stronger than him in Canon) only reinforces it as the correct one.
I'm taking Palpatine's egoistical sub-narrative with a pinch of salt - you are aware the dude spent his entire career deceiving Vader? And I don't see why the personal opinion of Pablo Hidalgo is canon either.
Fanon lol. There is no basis for that in any source.
Actually, there is.
"Your powers are weak," Vader noted emotionlessly. "Old man, you should never have come back. It will make your end less peaceful than you might have wished."
"You sense only a part of the Force, Darth," Kenobi murmured with the assurance of one to whom death is merely another sensation, like sleeping or making love or touching a candle. "As always, you perceive its reality as little as a utensil perceives the taste of food."
It's possible that Kenobi's attempt to connect with the spiritual realm of the Force stagnated his ability to affect the Physical plane. I imagine that's what Kenobi meant by stating "you sense only a part of the Force"
And also what he meant by "growing since they last met".
Pablo Hidalgo is a member of the Lucasfilm Story Group, who determine what is Canon, so no it's not just his personal opinion lol, it's effectively fact. Palpatine's observations only reinforcing that reality, as do Vader's feats.
And that's really not a precedent, instead its been stated that the Living Force and the Cosmic Force have an interconnected, symbiotic relationship. Vader's obsession with the physical plane notwithstanding.
I think that most of you are overrating the Force as a factor during duels. I would even risk an opinion, that Dooku was never able to effortlessly choke / push Kenobi. Before any of Dooku Force attacks, his opponents are overhelmed and thrown off-balance in saber fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCoG7UsHG8Q
1:28 - Dooku overhelms them in saber lock, Kenobi is clearly thrown off-balance and has his guard left. Dooku then Force chokes him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIe2A-SnXlY
This time it isn't as clear, but it's one of Dooku's advantages of one-handed grip - he blocked Kenobi in saberlock, and used his left hand to push Kenobi when he was vulnerable.
Dooku disarms Bulq right before a Force attack.
On the other hand, he was never able to stomp Kenobi the way he stomped Tiplee. Possibly because Kenobi was far superior to her as Force user.
Dooku couln't Force push Kenobi as well, when Kenobi was ready for that, as we could see in their last enoucnter in TCW.
Even Anakin was unable to overpower Kenobi in their push's fight. Imo mostly because Kenobi was ready for that attack.
Opress had to overhelm Adi in a saber fight as well. Then, he could use the Force.
Dooku had to engade Asajj and other NS in saber fight, until he catched them off-guard to Force attack. They probably left their guard after he seemed to be defeated.
Ventress also got terribly overhelmed by Dooku in their last fight in TCW, which enabled him to stomp her with his TK
Kenobi was two times floored by Maul's TK, mostly because he had to split his attention between Maul and Savage.
Even Vader - considered as a beast in the Force - couldn't easily Force pushed Ahoska. At first he needed to overhelm her in saber fight. And Ahsoka pushed him only when she evade his strike at first, and countered immediately, before he could rise his guard again.
We could also see a duel between Ahsoka and Maul with none of them having an advantage. The same Maul was badly stomped by Sidious. Ventress was badly stomped by Yoda.
Ahsoka, Ventress, Kenobi, Maul or Bulq - hard to tell, which one of them was the best Force user, or which one of them had the strongest guard. One thing is obvious for me: neither Dooku, Vader or Mace could easily stomp those guys in the Force. Unlike Sidious or Yoda. So Vader might be > Dooku or Mace or Anakin in the Force, but that dose not change the fact, that he's closer to them, then he's to Sidious. He has to fight people of Kanan's or Ezra's caliber, to stomp them in the Force. Nothing suggest, that he will be able to stomp stronger rivals.
And on that level of skill in the Force and sabers (Dooku, Mace, Vader league) sabers ale obviously more usefull as a weapon. Unlike in higher league - league of Yoda and Sidious.
Yes, Dooku has shown that he can incapacitate Obi Wan with relative impunity, what's more is he can do it with the likes of Anakin breathing down his kneck. Who has Vader dispatched with the Force, exactly?
Jax Pavan?
Rham Kota?
Or his failed TK attempts on Failen/Starkiller - the same guy who get's shoved around by the imperial shadow guards?
A failed TK attempt on ESB Luke?
LMAO.
Originally posted by MythLord
Let's just ignore Dooku choking Obi-Wan, or dispatching him with a "whipcrack" of his power, then, shall we?
So why didn't he do that at the beginning of the fight? Or in The Lost One? Or in Crisis on Maboo? Or in AOTC?
I'm awaiting a good answer.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Who has Vader dispatched with the Force, exactly?
He actually has a better list than Mace Windu.
I guess that means Dooku > Vader > Windu in Tk right?
Originally posted by MythLord
Let's just ignore Dooku choking Obi-Wan, or dispatching him with a "whipcrack" of his power, then, shall we?
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So why didn't he do that at the beginning of the fight? Or in The Lost One? Or in Crisis on Maboo? Or in AOTC?
I tried to prove, that Kenobi was somehow taken off-guard every time Dooku floored him with the Force. When he wasn't, he was able to even block Count's push.