Is Dooku > Vader?

Originally posted by Darth Thor
So why didn't he do that at the beginning of the fight? Or in The Lost One? Or in Crisis on Maboo? Or in AOTC?

I'm awaiting a good answer.

Disregarding that any author, director or comic artist would agree people sweeping away other people with hand gestures isn't good entertainment, Dooku is primarily a duelist, and wishes to outfence his opponents primarily if he has the pleasure.

In RotS, which is the only source Dooku was pressed by Kenobi in lightsaber combat, he resorted to his Force abilities and bested Obi-Wan through them.

Notice how many Force users enjoy first outdueling their enemies, then dispatching them with the Force; something even Sidious adheres to. It'd make sense Dooku does as well, especially given his reputation as a master swordsman, master fencer and dedicated combatant.

There's also Maul to consider, if the only criteria for being above ANH Vader is ragdolling Kenobi then is Maul a more powerful Force user as well?

If so Sheev really lucked out here. mmm

@Myth, why is Vader exempt from that same logic lol?

TPM Maul could legitimately be stronger than Vader, he is superior in lightsaber combat as of ANH.

@Beni

I'm not arguing he is. In fact, that logic should apply to him since people usually b!tch and moan at his inability to dispatch Ben, or ESB Luke, despite him proving more than able of dispatching opponents of an even greater calibre.

Isn't there a Scan where ESB Luke Blocks Vader's attempt at ragdolling him ?

Originally posted by MythLord
In RotS, which is the only source Dooku was pressed by Kenobi in lightsaber combat, he resorted to his Force abilities and bested Obi-Wan through them.

Originally posted by MythLord Notice how many Force users enjoy first outdueling their enemies, then dispatching them with the Force; something even Sidious adheres to. It'd make sense Dooku does as well, especially given his reputation as a master swordsman, master fencer and dedicated combatant./B]

Vader or Dooku couldn't do that this way.

Originally posted by McP
That's llright, despite the fact that ROS novel contraditcs the movie and exaggerating Force user's powers.
Ok, for me it's not allright. Dooku was a better dueslit then Kenobi at the time of ROTS, which is somehow confirmed by ROTS script, that cuted scene that I posted above, and last season of TCW. Dooku landed a lot of kicks on Obi-Wan and Anakin. In ROTS Anakin was stunned for a couple of seconds, in that cuted scene Anakin also lost his balance after Dooku's first kick and nearly fall on his knee. During their duel in TCW Kenobi also got some painful kick, he held his ribs for some time. And Dooku's first kick nearly killed him.
At that point, Dooku was kicked just one time, being taken by surprise by Anakin in ROTS.

After piecing together whatever that was, I realized you're arguing Dooku is actually > Obi-Wan as a duelist. And yes, that is true, but if you read the RotS novel, which you seemed to do, Obi-Wan was actually pressing Dooku.

Basically, Dooku needed to beat Kenobi quickly in a duel, before Skywalker gets up and they double-team him. However, since Anakin just got up, and Obi-Wan is good enough for Dooku not to stomp him in less than a second, Dooku had to improvise and used the Force.

It means Kenobi is a close contender with Dooku saber-wise, and that if Dooku wants to finish the fight off quickly, he'll need to do so with Force powers, not through dueling(since that's an area where Obi can compete in).

Originally posted by McP
I did that, and as I said, Yoda and Sidious are on completly different level then Dooku, Anakin, Mace or Vader. Yoda has shown how badly he can stomp Ventress. Palpatine catched Maul and Opress off-guard, but then he let them free, to fight them. And during that fight he was showing his Force's superiority all the time.

Vader or Dooku couldn't do that this way.

I legitimately do not care if Yoda or Sheev are better than Dooku, Anakin, Mace or Vader. That's a no-brainer fact, but that doesn't mean because Yoda and Palpatine do something, Dooku or Vader can't.

They can dominate other Force users, just not ones on the level that Yoda or Sidious can dominate, but the gap between them is proportional. What Sidious can do to Maul, Dooku can do to Zayne Carrick, for example. What Yoda can do to Asajj, Vader can do to TPM Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon Jinn.

They're all capable of dominating Force users are long as they are considerably above them; hence why Vader or Dooku can overpower Kenobi handily via TK.

It is a simple matter of power-levels and proportional gaps between said power-levels.

Wen did Vader show a capability to overpower Kenobi handily via TK? He didn't on Mustafar nor on the Death Star.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The new Star Wars comic series confirms that Kenobi didn't practice his saber abilities in exile, by the way.

Originally posted by McP
That's llright, despite the fact that ROS novel contraditcs the movie and exaggerating Force user's powers.
Ok, for me it's not allright. Dooku was a better dueslit then Kenobi at the time of ROTS, which is somehow confirmed by ROTS script, that cuted scene that I posted above, and last season of TCW. Dooku landed a lot of kicks on Obi-Wan and Anakin. In ROTS Anakin was stunned for a couple of seconds, in that cuted scene Anakin also lost his balance after Dooku's first kick and nearly fall on his knee. During their duel in TCW Kenobi also got some painful kick, he held his ribs for some time. And Dooku's first kick nearly killed him.
At that point, Dooku was kicked just one time, being taken by surprise by Anakin in ROTS.

I did that, and as I said, Yoda and Sidious are on completly different level then Dooku, Anakin, Mace or Vader. Yoda has shown how badly he can stomp Ventress. Palpatine catched Maul and Opress off-guard, but then he let them free, to fight them. And during that fight he was showing his Force's superiority all the time.

Vader or Dooku couldn't do that this way.

Originally posted by MythLord
[B]@Beni

I'm not arguing he is. In fact, that logic should apply to him since people usually b!tch and moan at his inability to dispatch Ben, or ESB Luke, despite him proving more than able of dispatching opponents of an even greater calibre. [/B]

Originally posted by Jmanghan
That sounds stupid.

Nah he continued to train, even becoming a bodyguard and fighting off Sand People. I mean it's said in the beginning of the one issue he hadn't touched a lightsaber in years, but at the end he picks it up again. Then the next issue detailing Obi-Wan, he becomes a bodyguard for Jawas against a horde of Sand People.

He then fights Krrsatan(the Wookiee bounty hunter) in another issue.

I mean it's not really directly stated, but it's shown with Obi-Wan picking up his lightsaber and activating it here and there, implying he did train at least somewhat.

It makes no sense for him not to continue to train, given the harshness of Tatooine.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Isn't there a Scan where ESB Luke Blocks Vader's attempt at ragdolling him ?

Are those comics even Canon? As I understood it, they were more in a grey area. Plus they seemed to contradict the movies a lot...or well at least ROTJ with Boba Fett.

It's in the grey area, yeah. It's not canon, but neither is it non-canon. But what does it contradict? Quotes/scans?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Nah he continued to train, even becoming a bodyguard and fighting off Sand People. I mean it's said in the beginning of the one issue he hadn't touched a lightsaber in years, but at the end he picks it up again. Then the next issue detailing Obi-Wan, he becomes a bodyguard for Jawas against a horde of Sand People.

He then fights Krrsatan(the Wookiee bounty hunter) in another issue.

I mean it's not really directly stated, but it's shown with Obi-Wan picking up his lightsaber and activating it here and there, implying he did train at least somewhat.

It makes no sense for him not to continue to train, given the harshness of Tatooine.

Originally posted by Azronger
It's in the grey area, yeah. It's not canon, but neither is it non-canon. But what does it contradict? Quotes/scans?

Well the only contradiction I've seen, is that in the ROTJ one. Boba has a fight with Luke, which is when watching the movie, is clearly an impossibility. Don't got the scans on hand though.

Originally posted by MythLord
Disregarding that any author, director or comic artist would agree people sweeping away other people with hand gestures isn't good entertainment, Dooku is primarily a duelist, and wishes to outfence his opponents primarily if he has the pleasure.

In RotS, which is the only source Dooku was pressed by Kenobi in lightsaber combat, he resorted to his Force abilities and bested Obi-Wan through them.

Notice how many Force users enjoy first outdueling their enemies, then dispatching them with the Force; something even Sidious adheres to. It'd make sense Dooku does as well, especially given his reputation as a master swordsman, master fencer and dedicated combatant.

Of course any author or director could agree to an instant owning. Look at Yoda vs Ventress or Sidious bs Maul brothers..

I buy your theory to an extent, but it's certainly no proof that Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi anytime he likes. Because combatants also like to show their Force dominance as well. It's not all about Sabers. Dooku begins his fight with Anakin in TCW using the Force on more than 1 occasion. By ROTS he k ew Anakin was a handful alone, and looking at that Force push against Kenobi early in the fight, he was out to win any way possible and as early as possible.

He also had no interest in testing his Saber skills in The Lost One.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The new Star Wars comic series confirms that Kenobi didn't practice his saber abilities in exile, by the way.

You're supposed to read to the end of the comic.

Originally posted by Azronger
It's in the grey area, yeah. It's not canon, but neither is it non-canon. But what does it contradict? Quotes/scans?

That's not a grey area. If it's not canon it's non-canon. Simple.

Originally posted by McP
Wen did Vader show a capability to overpower Kenobi handily via TK? He didn't on Mustafar nor on the Death Star.

On Mustafar, he was emotionally conflicted, so he was vulnerable.

On the Death Star, like I explained, Vader was trying to outduel him first like most Force users.