Did Lucas fail to make Anakin a compelling character?

lol the double-standards are hilarious. You say Anakin made an impulsive decision. Isn't that exactly what Kylo did at least twice?
Rage quit one:
YouTube video
and two
YouTube video

Looks like Kylo was blinded by his feelings to the point where he lost it as well.

You say Vader was a disgrace to the sith, yet Kylo openly says to Vader's ghost that he feels a pull to the light. He asks Vader to show him the power of the darkness lol. Looks like Kylo was weak if anything. Doesn't have the balls to tell it to Snoke's face.
YouTube video

Originally posted by Kurk
lol the double-standards are hilarious. You say Anakin made an impulsive decision. Isn't that exactly what Kylo did at least twice?
Rage quit one:
YouTube video
and two
YouTube video

Looks like Kylo was blinded by his feelings to the point where he lost it as well.

You say Vader was a disgrace to the sith, yet Kylo openly says to Vader's ghost that he feels a pull to the light. He asks Vader to show him the power of the darkness lol. Looks like Kylo was weak if anything. Doesn't have the balls to tell it to Snoke's face.
YouTube video

Kylo is the inverse of Luke which means he didn't change. Luke stayed true to himself just as Kylo did. Anakin can't make the same claim. Your post is hilariously stupid and is avoiding my point entirely.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Kylo admitted he was conflicted. That's being honest with yourself. Anakin was delusional and when the time came he balked. He balked in a rather buffoonish way because he didn't want to kill her. He worshipped her like a puppy. He lost it again once Palpatine told him her fate. Kylo raged out but he didn't rage out at the cost of his ideals. Anakin did so many times. He even did so as Vader. His ideals changed so often who knew the hell that pansy even believed anymore.

Kylo is the inverse of Luke which means he didn't change. Luke stayed true to himself just as Kylo did. Anakin can't make the same claim. Your post is hilariously stupid and is avoiding my point entirely.

Kylo was afraid he would never become as strong as Vader lol. Kylo raged out without sacrificing his ideals of immaturity and irrationality yes I agree. What ideals did Anakin sacrifice as a dark-sider? You're making claims but with no evidence to back them.

Kylo is clearly not staying true to himself if he's feeling the pull of the light. It means he's having doubts. The same feeling Vader had in RotJ when Luke asked him to join him.

It shows a level of immaturity when someone behaves like that. Vader did the same thing in RotS when he TK crushed everything in the medical-facility over Padme's death.

.....This was immature Kurk? Raging over losing your loved one and children, is immature? So he was also immature when Shmi died in his arms?

Originally posted by Kurk
Lol at you saying I'm avoiding your post when it's you who is going out on a limb.
Anakin spoke to Kenobi, Palpatine, and Padme about his problems—Kylo spoke to an inanimate object. In which scenario would a psychologist call the person delusional?

Kylo was afraid he would never become as strong as Vader lol. Kylo raged out without sacrificing his ideals of immaturity and irrationality yes I agree. What ideals did Anakin sacrifice as a dark-sider? You're making claims but with no evidence to back them.

Kylo is clearly not staying true to himself if he's feeling the pull of the light. It means he's having doubts. The same feeling Vader had in RotJ when Luke asked him to join him.

Anakin embraced the Jedi ideals. Did you seriously see the films ? Did you miss his conversations with Palpatine ? He forfeited all of this in order to save Padme. He then wigs out and attacks her. He's a joke.

Kylo was being honest. He was being human but he resisted the pull of the light. Vader didn't believe there was a conflict so he lied to himself. Luke sensed it and was proven right. You would back an idiot who is delusional who turned to the light and talk smack about someone who faces their feelings and conquered them aka Kylo. Kylo passed his test while Vader failed it. Pretty cut and dry.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
.....This was immature Kurk? Raging over losing your loved one and children, is immature? So he was also immature when Shmi died in his arms?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I never said anything about being mentally healthy I said true to their ideals. Kylo was Vader wasn't.

Anakin embraced the Jedi ideals. Did you seriously see the films ? Did you miss his conversations with Palpatine ? He forfeited all of this in order to save Padme. He then wigs out and attacks her. He's a joke.

Kylo was being honest. He was being human but he resisted the pull of the light. Vader didn't believe there was a conflict so he lied to himself. Luke sensed it and was proven right. You would back an idiot who is delusional who turned to the light and talk smack about someone who faces their feelings and conquered them aka Kylo. Kylo passed his test while Vader failed it. Pretty cut and dry.

I'm talking about non-jedi ideals here. Regardless, there were few Anakin abided by as a jedi so you're not losing much when he turns to the dark-side. Anakin forfeited his ideals from the start by marrying Padme so what you said really has no substance. Palpatine simply manipulated him for his own purposes.

"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

Anakin has demonstrated all of these values as a so-called jedi. With Ahsoka, with R2D2, with Kenobi, with Padme, with Rex. If you can argue that he didn't break the number one rule of jedi code of conduct of not forming bonds to others, I will do whatever you wish.
It's not like Palpatine had to brainwash Anakin; the problems were already present, he just built upon them. Being rejected the rank of master, the lack of trust by others, the bullying by Mace, The wrongful handling of Ahsoka's murder case. Anakin was upset to begin with.

Vader said that there was no conflict in front of his master. Before that he told Luke "It is too late for me, son" when offered to turn to the light, suggesting that Vader accepted he took the wrong path. Vader's story is over. We don't know what will happen to Kylo just yet. Kylo passed his initial test just like Vader passed his by fighting Kenobi and raiding the jedi temple. Not cut and dry at all.

Originally posted by Kurk
His response was immature. He could've channeled that energy into something more productive rather than destroying expensive medical equipment.

...Right cause I'm sure any other person would act out any other emotion. Especially when already mentally unstable.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
...Right cause I'm sure any other person would act out any other emotion. Especially when already mentally unstable.

Originally posted by Kurk
His response was immature. He could've channeled that energy into something more productive rather than destroying expensive medical equipment.
I was first referring to your claim of Anakin being delusional. A delusional person talks to a helmet about their problems and a healthy person talks to other people.

I'm talking about non-jedi ideals here. Regardless, there were few Anakin abided by as a jedi so you're not losing much when he turns to the dark-side. Anakin forfeited his ideals from the start by marrying Padme so what you said really has no substance. Palpatine simply manipulated him for his own purposes.

"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

Anakin has demonstrated all of these values as a so-called jedi. With Ahsoka, with R2D2, with Kenobi, with Padme, with Rex. If you can argue that he didn't break the number one rule of jedi code of conduct of not forming bonds to others, I will do whatever you wish.
It's not like Palpatine had to brainwash Anakin; the problems were already present, he just built upon them. Being rejected the rank of master, the lack of trust by others, the bullying by Mace, The wrongful handling of Ahsoka's murder case. Anakin was upset to begin with.

Vader said that there was no conflict in front of his master. Before that he told Luke "It is too late for me, son" when offered to turn to the light, suggesting that Vader accepted he took the wrong path. Vader's story is over. We don't know what will happen to Kylo just yet. Kylo passed his initial test just like Vader passed his by fighting Kenobi and raiding the jedi temple. Not cut and dry at all.

Anakin loved her so he violated a rule not the same as embracing ideals completely opposite to his own. He was a traitor to the Jedi and slaughtered them. Nothing worse than being a member of something and becoming a traitor. Kylo insulted Finn by calling him a traitor. It's awful and Vader was a traitor to both in the end.

Palpatine did have to manipulate him and despite all those things you just described he still didn't turn until he was forced to choose with Windu present. He turned Palpatine over to the Jedi. That's the only reason they even knew. You have no comprehension when it comes to this whatsoever.

Vader failed his family test. Kylo passed it. Apples to apples comparison. We have a comparable feat. Kylo already slayed the Jedi he trained with under Luke you fool hence Luke's chickenshit seclusion. I have this every which way because I'm smart. Most on here are lemmings and don't think for themselves.
🙂

Originally posted by quanchi112
That isn't delusional that's how he chose to go about his inner conflict. He recognized it was there. A delusional person denies there's a problem. I don't care if Kylo is masturbating furiously while he's looking at the helmet its fucjing irrelevant. The fact I have to hold your hand your hand through something even the uneducated you should be able to grasp is a waste of my time.

Anakin loved her so he violated a rule not the same as embracing ideals completely opposite to his own. He was a traitor to the Jedi and slaughtered them. Nothing worse than being a member of something and becoming a traitor. Kylo insulted Finn by calling him a traitor. It's awful and Vader was a traitor to both in the end.

Palpatine did have to manipulate him and despite all those things you just described he still didn't turn until he was forced to choose with Windu present. He turned Palpatine over to the Jedi. That's the only reason they even knew. You have no comprehension when it comes to this whatsoever.

Vader failed his family test. Kylo passed it. Apples to apples comparison. We have a comparable feat. Kylo already slayed the Jedi he trained with under Luke you fool hence Luke's chickenshit seclusion. I have this every which way because I'm smart. Most on here are lemmings and don't think for themselves.
🙂

I'm sure masturbating furiously is how you deal with your problems Quanchi. I'm not suprised. Anyway both acknowledge their inner conflicts. good. let's move on.

Paragraph 2:
Let's see, the Sith play off emotion, fear, anger, hate. Anakin was emotional and feared for the loss of his mother, Padme, Ahsoka, and Kenobi. He usually gets angry as a result when his fears become reality. The loss of Shmi caused him to go on a murderous rampage as a result of his anger. He later said he hated them directly to Padme's face. One example of many. He completely rejected jedi ideals from the beginning. Please try to argue that he didn't. Anakin achieved the prophecy of the chosen one and brought peace in the end. That's his role.

Paragraph 3:
I don't disagree. Anakin may have disagreed with the jedi, but that doesn't mean you have to embrace sith values. It's not an easy choice.

Paragraph 4:
Vader completed the same tests early in his life like Kylo. He turned near the end of his life. Kylo is still very young and anything can happen during that time. Things are not always as they seem.

Originally posted by Kurk
Paragraph 1:
]
I'm sure masturbating furiously is how you deal with your problems Quanchi. I'm not suprised. Anyway both acknowledge their inner conflicts. good. let's move on.

Vader said "there is no conflict." You can hear him say it 1:49:49 in the film. Did you watch the film ? You seem rather noobish in your star wars knowledge. Point refuted.

Paragraph 2:
Let's see, the Sith play off emotion, fear, anger, hate. Anakin was emotional and feared for the loss of his mother, Padme, Ahsoka, and Kenobi. He usually gets angry as a result when his fears become reality. The loss of Shmi caused him to go on a murderous rampage as a result of his anger. He later said he hated them directly to Padme's face. One example of many. He completely rejected jedi ideals from the beginning. Please try to argue that he didn't. Anakin achieved the prophecy of the chosen one and brought peace in the end. That's his role.
[/B]

He even says, "What have I done," immediately after he helped Palpatine against Windu. That wouldn't come from someone who was already a Sith who embraced their ideals prior to those events.

Paragraph 3:
I don't disagree. Anakin may have disagreed with the jedi, but that doesn't mean you have to embrace sith values. It's not an easy choice.

Paragraph 4:
Vader completed the same tests early in his life like Kylo. He turned near the end of his life. Kylo is still very young and anything can happen during that time. Things are not always as they seem. [/B]

4: See you're an asshat. You first tried to create some kind of evil points since he killed his fellow Jedi but again change the goalposts because you're too stupid to realize Kylo did the same thing, not the argument for you becomes at the end of his life. Irrelevant. Kylo overcame the light over his own father when the time came. Snoke remarked how it was his biggest test. He passed it. The same cannot be said of delusional Vader who lied to Luke and himself when he said there is no conflict. Game, set, match.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader said [B]"there is no conflict." You can hear him say it 1:49:49 in the film. Did you watch the film ? You seem rather noobish in your star wars knowledge. Point refuted.

No, he didn't. He believed in the Jedi way and actively fought for the Jedi. He was always weak though and dipped out of both paths along the way. He's a weak person. You're ignoring the clone wars animated shows, his heroic deeds, his love for Tano, and his love for Kenobi.

He even says, "What have I done," immediately after he helped Palpatine against Windu. That wouldn't come from someone who was already a Sith who embraced their ideals prior to those events.

3: I never said it was an easy choice I said he was delusional to believe he wasn't having an inner conflict when he denied this to Luke. We learn later in the film Luke was right about him.

4: See you're an asshat. You first tried to create some kind of evil points since he killed his fellow Jedi but again change the goalposts because you're too stupid to realize Kylo did the same thing, not the argument for you becomes at the end of his life. Irrelevant. Kylo overcame the light over his own father when the time came. Snoke remarked how it was his biggest test. He passed it. The same cannot be said of delusional Vader who lied to Luke and himself when he said there is no conflict. Game, set, match. [/B]

I never said Anakin was a sith before Palpatine, but rather that he was in conflict with the jedi order. Their handling of Tano pissed him off as did their refusal to grant him the rank of master. Qui-Gon rejected many of the ideals of the jedi yet he wasn't a sith. It's not all black and white. I'm not ignoring TCW. It establishes his attachments to characters as it does the dark-side of Anakin as a result of his attachment and love for those characters. A blessing and a curse.
YouTube video

3. I already cited the time when he admitted it to Luke before their fight. Obviously in front of Sidious he's not going to say "there is a conflict".

4. I've already addressed the second half of this. Storming the temple was Vader's test as killing Solo was Ren's test. What's more to discuss? Vader's story is complete, Kylo still has two more movies.

Originally posted by Kurk
Did you watch the movie Quan?
Before he said there is no conflict in front of Sidious, he said this to Luke:
[youtube]dc4q4lmGjF

There is clearly conflict if he stands there for a minute watching his son getting electrocuted before deciding to throw Sidious down a reactor shaft.

I never said Anakin was a sith before Palpatine, but rather that he was in conflict with the jedi order. Their handling of Tano pissed him off as did their refusal to grant him the rank of master. Qui-Gon rejected many of the ideals of the jedi yet he wasn't a sith. It's not all black and white. I'm not ignoring TCW. It establishes his attachments to characters as it does the dark-side of Anakin as a result of his attachment and love for those characters. A blessing and a curse.

Anakin was always in conflict with everything he didn't agree with and took no responsibility himself which made him extremely immature. Qui wasn't weak like Anakin that's the whole point. You don't have to be perfect to be a Jedi but Anakin was weak and chose the other path. He stayed on it despite losing Padme. What a loser. It was only a curse. He had a terrible life because of this.

3. I already cited the time when he admitted it to Luke before their fight. Obviously in front of Sidious he's not going to say "there is a conflict".

4. I've already addressed the second half of this. Storming the temple was Vader's test as killing Solo was Ren's test. What's more to discuss? Vader's story is complete, Kylo still has two more movies. [/B]

3. So now you're saying he was too much of a pansy to defend his own son in front of his master. Now you're saying he was lying and a coward. You continue to change the goalposts. None of this even matters as he failed. He went back to the light but Kylo didn't despite his inner conflict.

4. No, his own son was the test. His love for his son brought him back which proves it was harder than killing Jedi. Ren already slaughtered his former knights of Ren. That's two tests he passed.

Kylo killed a family member but Vader was unable to let the emperor kill his son. You've lost.

lol at your fundamentalist approach again. You know just as well that in that context after Luke asks him to let go of his hate Vader's response suggests he's conflicted. He doesn't say "no, look at the power I have". Anyone with any critical reading/listening skills can interpret what it means.

Exactly, Vader was conflicted and at least recognized it before their fight.

Quanchi you are a genius. He should have admitted to Sidious that he was contemplating turning to the light-side and saving Luke. Genius plan. That's why Kylo told Snoke about his uncertainty with the dark-side right?

I think I'm running out of energy for this at 12:30am. I applaud you on your bullshitting abilities and hope to continue this bickering some other time.

Originally posted by Kurk
lol at your fundamentalist approach again. You know just as well that in that context after Luke asks him to let go of his hate Vader's response suggests he's conflicted. He doesn't say "no, look at the power I have". Anyone with any critical reading/listening skills can interpret what it means.

Exactly, Vader was conflicted and at least recognized it before their fight.

Quanchi you are a genius. He should have admitted to Sidious that he was contemplating turning to the light-side and saving Luke. Genius plan. That's why Kylo told Snoke about his uncertainty with the dark-side right?

I think I'm running out of energy for this at 12:30am. I applaud you on your bullshitting abilities and hope to continue this bickering some other time.

During the fight he lied and said he wasn't. Once again it doesn't matter since Vader failed whereas Kylo prevailed.

Kylo said he'd be successful and he was. Snoke successfully seduced him Palpatine failed.

My position is correct. Your flip flop debating is all over the place. You change your position and distance yourself from the results of both. Kylo was successful Vader failed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He flat out says, "There is no conflict." Once again you ignore what words mean because you get really desperate. Actions matter not words. Kylo killed his father. Vader loved his son too much to do so. Period.

During the fight he lied and said he wasn't. Once again it doesn't matter since Vader failed whereas Kylo prevailed.

Kylo said he'd be successful and he was. Snoke successfully seduced him Palpatine failed.

My position is correct. Your flip flop debating is all over the place. You change your position and distance yourself from the results of both. Kylo was successful Vader failed.

Again, when Luke says "Let go of your hate!", Vader doesn't say "No way! Hate is the best thing ever, and I love it!" He says, rather mournfully, "It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now." This gives me the impression that:

Vader regrets becoming a Sith. He doesn't like being Vader. He feels that his bad decisions in the past have doomed him to remain evil, and if he had the opportunity, he would go back and do things differently.
If Vader could leave the Emperor's service, he would do so, but he thinks he isn't strong enough to pull it off, or good enough to deserve a better life. He hates himself.

You want more sources that Vader was conflicted?
In the canon book Sith Lords, Vader saves a small girl from being killed by Sidious.

Going back to RotJ:
Luke: Then you know why I have to face him.

Leia: No! Luke, run away, far away! If he can feel your presence, then leave this place! I wish I could go with you.

Luke: No, you don't. You've always been strong.

Leia: But why must you confront him?

Luke: Because there is good in him. I've felt it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I can save him. I can turn him back to the good side. I have to try. [kisses Leia on the cheek, then leaves]

Let's see what George Lucas had to say about this:
"You learn that Darth Vader isn’t this monster. He’s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he’s trapped. He’s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster. I mean, he’s a monster in that he’s turned to the Dark Side and he’s serving a bad master and he’s into power and he’s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he’s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, “I know there’s still good in you, I can sense it.” Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he’s a monster, does he redeem himself."

Okay are we done with Vader now? Yes, Vader is in a way a pathetic failure who is over-hyped by OT fanboys. But that wasn't the original issue when we first started this bickering.

I stated that Kylo was an immature character due to his multiple rampages which show how emotions get the better of him. You went off-topic with Vader. Now that we settled that, can you focus on Kylo please?

So basically you confirmed my position that Vader indeed was delusional to deny being conflicted at the moment when Luke proposed the question. He was also wrong that it was too late for him as we see upon the films conclusion. All in all Vader couldn't rise above his conflict whereas Ben Solo clearly did so thus far. As I said Ben Solo succeeded where Anakin failed. Kylo lives. He also tried to kill friends of Han Solo and screamed, "traitor," at Finn. I can't quote you for some reason it all disappears when I hit the quote function.

Kylo is younger thus more susceptible due to being more immature and with less experiences. Those temper tantrums didn't change his focus or his goals so again you're crying over something very, very, very small in the big picture. You hate Kylo I get it. I don't. I expect huge things from the character in the future. He's my boy's apprentice after all.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So basically you confirmed my position that Vader indeed was delusional to deny being conflicted at the moment when Luke proposed the question. He was also wrong that it was too late for him as we see upon the films conclusion. All in all Vader couldn't rise above his conflict whereas Ben Solo clearly did so thus far. As I said Ben Solo succeeded where Anakin failed. Kylo lives. He also tried to kill friends of Han Solo and screamed, "traitor," at Finn. I can't quote you for some reason it all disappears when I hit the quote function.

Kylo is younger thus more susceptible due to being more immature and with less experiences. Those temper tantrums didn't change his focus or his goals so again you're crying over something very, very, very small in the big picture. You hate Kylo I get it. I don't. I expect huge things from the character in the future. He's my boy's apprentice after all.

And I can't believe I forgot about this juicy little line:
Solo: Snoke is using you for your power. When he get's what he wants he'll crush you. You know it's true.

Ren: It's too late

Solo: Leave here with me come home.

Ren: I know what I have to do but I don't know if I have the strength; will you help me?

Ren was clearly conflicted here just like RotJ Vader. He accepted that Snoke was using him and almost wasn't able to kill his father. He whispers "Thank you" and stands in shock after (which resulted in him getting shot).

RotS Vader, when he was Kylo's age, slaughtered all his jedi comrades without hesitation. He was also being used like Kylo but wasn't as weak when it came to performing the dark deeds unlike Ren who hesitated to kill his father.

Kylo rose above his conflict, for now, with some difficulty. RotS Vader did the same but without hesitating.

Kylo's unchecked tantrums are an unlikable character flaw. It shows immaturity. Simple as that.

I do not hate Kylo—in fact I do not hate any SW characters (though Rebels Hondo really pushes me at times). Kylo does have potential, but right now he comes off as inexperienced, naive, insecure, unprofessional, undisciplined, all of the above.

Ben did what he had to do. Snoke has that much of a grip on him. Palpatine utterly failed to do what Snoke has done to Ben. It's quite amazing and I get to shit all over Palpatine as well. Ben acknowledged how difficult it was but still overcame the pull of the light. Anakin failed to acknowledge the pull of the light but failed anyways despite more experience in the dark side.

Anakin got on his knees after he helped kill Windu with, "What have I done ?" On his knees he went like a broken man bent to another man's service because of his fear ridden actions in the span of a few moments. He was weak then and weak up in rotj. In both trilogy finales he betrayed whatever side he started out on.

Kylo is younger and inexperienced so expect immaturity to come with it. When he completes his training I expect him to be a more controlled and outright monster. Look at the growth in Anakin from AOTC to Rots.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ben did what he had to do. Snoke has that much of a grip on him. Palpatine utterly failed to do what Snoke has done to Ben. It's quite amazing and I get to shit all over Palpatine as well. Ben acknowledged how difficult it was but still overcame the pull of the light. Anakin failed to acknowledge the pull of the light but failed anyways despite more experience in the dark side.

Anakin got on his knees after he helped kill Windu with, "What have I done ?" On his knees he went like a broken man bent to another man's service because of his fear ridden actions in the span of a few moments. He was weak then and weak up in rotj. In both trilogy finales he betrayed whatever side he started out on.

Kylo is younger and inexperienced so expect immaturity to come with it. When he completes his training I expect him to be a more controlled and outright monster. Look at the growth in Anakin from AOTC to Rots.

Let's just settle for both Anakin and Kylo are emotionally weak.

Yeah if Kylo matures into someone like his master I'll be impressed. In the meantime, he's an immature child like Anakin. Lol what growth between AotC and RotS?