Odin vs Thanos/Darkseid

Originally posted by -K-M-
Except you know that's not what he was referring to. He literally said "I have the mind, seasoned by experience" literally talking about intelligence. If his powers were greater why didn't he show his superiority? Because you know as he said he was a shadow of his former self

No. Current darkseid manhandled shadow Orion and used his gun to kill future darkseid due to the prophecy and that's how it ended

So DS didn't even actually do the job under his own power but rather used Orion and the prophecy? If he was outright supperior in overall compared to his older self why didn't he just kill the guy without Orion?

Also if it's the EXACT same DS, did the old DS remember that he's going to lose against the younger DS(since the younger version would carry the memory when it was over after all)?

Originally posted by darthgoober
No I don't KNOW that anymore than you KNOW otherwise because there wasn't any kind of "on the nose" declaration of such. A shadow of his former self PHYSICALLY. If he wasn't supperior telepathically how would he ever be able to body switch?

So DS didn't even actually do the job under his own power but rather used Orion and the prophecy? If he was outright supperior in overall compared to his older self why didn't he just kill the guy without Orion?

Also if it's the EXACT same DS, did the old DS remember that he's going to lose against the younger DS(since the younger version would carry the memory when it was over after all)?

AND ENERGY-WISE. As noted by the Legion his power was fading so he was draining energy from his servants

Correct. But future Darkseid was fading as noted. He just ended it. He used Orion as he attacked him from behind when he was fighting against future DS. Same blast that he just tanked he killed future DS with .

No as time was being rewritten, but the new timeline became canon for current DS. It's a paradox, but once again doesn't mean NOT CANON. 😬

Wasn't just simple time travel either. Older Darkseid explains to the newly born Darkseid how he brought him here, and precautions he made to ensure the universe in his time doesn’t get destroyed by multiplying the mass of the universe 10 years behind them causing a breakwater to protect the time from the ensuing onslaught about to come.

1. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion028-26.jpg
2. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion028-27.jpg
3. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion029-07.jpg

Originally posted by -K-M-
AND ENERGY-WISE. As noted by the Legion his power was fading so he was draining energy from his servants

Correct. But future Darkseid was fading as noted. He just ended it. He used Orion as he attacked him from behind when he was fighting against future DS. Same blast that he just tanked he killed future DS with .

No as time was being rewritten, but the new timeline became canon for current DS. It's a paradox, but once again doesn't mean NOT CANON. 😬

Wasn't just simple time travel either. Older Darkseid explains to the newly born Darkseid how he brought him here, and precautions he made to ensure the universe in his time doesn’t get destroyed by multiplying the mass of the universe 10 years behind them causing a breakwater to protect the time from the ensuing onslaught about to come.

1. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion028-26.jpg
2. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion028-27.jpg
3. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/TheLegion029-07.jpg

Right, he was physically dying from being super old so he was draining energy from servants to stay alive... but that doesn't mean DS is better when it comes to using/manipulating the OE or anything like that. And it certainly doesn't mean that young DS is superior telepathically.

So it's a totally different version of DS from an alternate timeline/universe which means using GDS DS's feats for current DS would totally qualify as "feat sharing" between different characters from different universes. And on KMC there's a fairly strict policy against that kind of thing.

I'm not in anyway saying that DS going to the future alternate timeline isn't canon for him. I'm saying that Old DS's feats aren't valid for Young DS.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Right, he was physically dying from being super old so he was draining energy from servants to stay alive... that doesn't mean DS is better when it comes to using/manipulating the OE or anything like that. And it certainly doesn't mean that young DS is superior telepathically.

So it's a totally different version of DS from an alternate timeline/universe which means using GDS for current DS would totally qualify as "feat sharing" between different characters from different universes. And on KMC there's a fairly strict policy against that kind of thing.

I'm not in anyway saying that DS going to the future alternate timeline isn't canon for him. I'm saying that Old DS's feats aren't valid for Young DS.

As per old DS yes, yes he was. So you're the one who said he was more powerful telepathically back it up. We know body classic DS was more powerful and had more energy. Only advantage future DS had was his mind due to experience. NOT POWER and wasn't referring to telepathy. Again even GDS DS said he was weaker then his current day self. You're arguing on-panel statements that really cant be argued.

Ah Lawd. Current DS that was in the new timeline is still current DS he was exposed to new timeline and is current DS. 😬 Doesn't matter if the timeline changed, it was still present day DS and new timeline still made that present day DS. We even have present day DS fight future DS as a direct comparison. What more do you want?

Yet here we are and you're still fighting tooth and nail for something that is 100% canon to current DS. Well even GDS is canon as well. To a degree again as once again in two separate timelines old DS said he was weaker, not stronger, didn't have more powers but weaker then current day self. Were approaching the I don't like it so I'm ignoring it debate.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What scene do you have in mind?

The Other best moment was Aunt May wearing the Iron Man suit 😄

sorry, it was spiderverse, not the other.... 😮

this scene:

https://imgur.com/jMQTJqh

cementing the fact that 2099 is the 616 of the future and not an alternate like so many believed. there were actually more references throughout as well.

Originally posted by -K-M-
As per old DS yes, yes he was. So you're the one who said he was more powerful telepathically back it up. We know body classic DS was more powerful and had more energy. Only advantage future DS had was his mind due to experience. NOT POWER and wasn't referring to telepathy. Again even GDS DS said he was weaker then his current day self. You're arguing on-panel statements that really cant be argued.

Ah Lawd. Current DS that was in the new timeline is still current DS he was exposed to new timeline and is current DS. 😬 Doesn't matter if the timeline changed, it was still present day DS and new timeline still made that present day DS. We even have present day DS fight future DS as a direct comparison. What more do you want?

Yet here we are and you're still fighting tooth and nail for something that is 100% canon to current DS. Well even GDS is canon as well. To a degree again as once again in two separate timelines old DS said he was weaker, not stronger, didn't have more powers but weaker then current day self. Were approaching the I don't like it so I'm ignoring it debate.

Old DS said that the younger version was better at using/manipulating the OE and telepathy? Well you could have just posting him a scan of him saying that from the get go to end this debate. Post it now and I'll totally concede the point.

Again, I'm not saying that current DS wasn't there in that timeline, I'm saying that he's not going to grow into that particular old DS. If he were then the old DS would have remembered the fight from his younger days. That means it's an alternate version of the character.

I don't know why you think that I'm saying DS's own feats from the GDS aren't relevant for him because I totally believe they are. Just as if Supes/Surfer/Thor/GL went to an alternate universe everything they experienced would still be relevant for them even if it wasn't relevant to the mainstreme universes as a whole.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Old DS said that the younger version was better at using/manipulating the OE and telepathically? Well you could have just posting him a scan of him saying that from the get go to end this. Post it now and I'll totally concede the point.

Again, I'm not saying that current DS wasn't there in that timeline, I'm saying that he's not going to grow into that particular old DS. If he were then the old DS would have remembered the fight from his younger days.

I don't know why you think that I'm saying DS's own feats from the GDS aren't relevant for him because I totally believe they are. Just as if Supes/Surfer/Thor/GL went to an alternate universe everything they experienced would still be relevant for them even if it wasn't relevant to the mainstreme universes as a whole.

No two instances from two different timelines old DS said he was weaker. One in direct power, other in body and energy. ie. future DS < present day DS. GDS absorbed energy to get back to his powerlevels of classic age as stated by him.

Apparently still will. As proven by Final Crisis all THREE Legion timelines including pre-crisis is still alive and active.

Again direct statements from future DS said he is weaker in two separate timelines. we even have a direct fight between one very inexperienced DS against the future DS. Most future versions are often times are STRONGER! not weaker, but again story made it clear DS was a shadow of his former self....twice and made no mention they gained new found power or future had more mastery over OE...but were in fact weaker

Now I don't care if GDS is allowed or not here, but in no way is it not canon. Especially due to reveal of multiversity.

ok, so.....sounds like gds IS indeed considered canon by dc comics. now, if it's specifically ruled a non-debatable issue by kmc, that's something different and could be addressed separately. i've no doubt galan or maybe km or abhi or maybe phil have the relevant scans supporting the new canon as recently outlined. if someone does, it should end the argument and have the ruling overturned. not that i care all that much one way or the other. i just figured it was canon in dc's eyes nowadays. /shrug

another question would be is that gds canon to LEGION? again, according to new dc, i figured it was. was it always? and if it is, that alone should be enough to have it canon imo, even though it takes place in the future. but maybe that's just me.

oh, and has there been any definitive proof that the LEGION future IS the future of the dc 616 (so-to-speak)?

Originally posted by -K-M-
No two instances from two different timelines old DS said he was weaker. One in direct power, other in body and energy. ie. future DS < present day DS. GDS absorbed energy to get back to his powerlevels of classic age as stated by him.

Apparently still will. As proven by Final Crisis all THREE Legion timelines including pre-crisis is still alive and active.

Again direct statements from future DS said he is weaker in two separate timelines. we even have a direct fight between one very inexperienced DS against the future DS. Most future versions are often times are STRONGER! not weaker, but again story made it clear DS was a shadow of his former self....twice

You're trying to draw a line between old DS needing the energy of others to indicate that young DS is better at manipulating the OE and telepathically but that's simply not the implication. 80 year Cyclops can be so old that he has to drain the life force of others but that in no way proves that his opitic blast are less powerful than his 20 year old self.

The fact that an alternate timeline still exists doesn't prove that it's the version that the mainstream version will grow into. The original Gog timeline still exists out there somewhere, that doesn't mean that it's the future of the 616 universe. In any of the Legion arcs did Old DS give any kind of indication that he remembered things from the younger version's perspective or anything like that? Or does he still approach the situation as if he has a chance of winning?

Yeah he was physically weaker than his younger self. That's why he said that the younger DS was superior in body. He didn't say that he was superior in everything BUT mind did he?

You were talking about previous mod rules was this before or after final crisis and multiveristy?

Originally posted by -K-M-
You were talking about previous mod rules was this before or after final crisis and multiveristy?

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're trying to draw a line between old DS needing the energy of others to indicate that young DS is better at manipulating the OE and telepathically but that's simply not the implication. 80 year Cyclops can be so old that he has to drain the life force of others but that in no way proves that his opitic blast are less powerful than his 20 year old self.

The fact that an alternate timeline still exists doesn't prove that it's the version that the mainstream version will grow into. The original Gog timeline still exists out there somewhere, that doesn't mean that it's the future of the 616 universe. In any of the Legion arcs did Old DS give any kind of indication that he remembered things from the younger version's perspective or anything like that?

Yeah he was physically weaker than his younger self. That's why he said that the younger DS was superior in body. He didn't say that he was superior in everything BUT mind did he?

Ummm yes as that's what ds said himself. He needed more energy to become as strong as his classic self he wasn't talking about physical strength

And why not? Because GDS and legion stories are still referencing those stories. Most of the time DS was gone, mia or asleep for a thousand years so his timeline would NOT change. It's not like he was running around the entire time until his fights with legion. Yes. He had Orion and others plucked from the old timeline. Maybe you need to reread it. You act like they legion timelines drastically change on a whim. They really don't

Yes. Said his body was superior which coincided with more energy and stronger and he said he had the better mind DUE to experience. That's it. They even fought and didn't display any new powers or make any reference to being more powerful in anything else 😬

Originally posted by darthgoober
The rules don't specifically mention the GDS, they simply exclude things like characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines and the like.

And as per multiversity they are ALL the same DS. Ie. canon

As much as you want to fight it it's all canon.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Ummm yes as that's what ds said himself. He needed more energy to become as strong as his classic self he wasn't talking about physical strength

And why not? Because GDS and legion stories are still referencing those stories. Most of the time DS was gone, mia or asleep for a thousand years so his timeline would NOT change. It's not like he was running around the entire time until his fights with legion. Yes. He had Orion and others plucked from the old timeline. Maybe you need to reread it

Yes. Said his body was superior which coincided with more energy and stronger and he said he had the better mind DUE to experience. That's it. They even fought and didn't display any new powers or make any reference to being more powerful in anything else 😬

Awesome, where's the scan of DS saying that his younger self is superior in regards to manipulating the OE and telepathically.

You seem to be avoiding the question, in the retelling of the story did the old version still think he could win like he did in the original version or did he lack his younger self's perspective on the fight?

Proof that by "body" he meant everything BUT mind? Because without such a thing all "body" definitely indicates is physically stronger and not dying of old age.

Originally posted by -K-M-
And as per multiversity they are ALL the same DS. Ie. canon

As much as you want to fight it it's all canon.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Awesome, where's the scan of DS saying that his younger self is superior in regards to manipulating the OE and telepathically.

You seem to be avoiding the question, in the retelling of the story did the old version still think he could win like he did in the original version or did he lack his younger self's perspective on the fight?

Proof that by "body" he meant everything BUT mind? Because without such a thing all "body" definitely indicates is physically stronger and not dying of old age.

Didn't say that now did I? But we know for a fact he was weaker. Also yes he needed energy to become more powerful. Where or where did he say he has more control over the oe? Burden is on you to prove he was stronger. That would be faulty as they went to great length to say the opposite

I'm avoiding the question? Har! You're avoiding on panel statement and showings 😬 and no he never made a comment who would win as he thought younger DS would give his body freely and see his thinking. He didn't expect it to go as he did. Just read the issue I'm tired of repeating myself

Because that's what DS said and shown. Ok yep we have officially approached I don't like it so I'm ignoring it debate now

Originally posted by darthgoober
So Multiversty establishes that he DOES remember the fight from the other end? He knows he's going to get killed by Orion and all that when he summons his younger self?

Jesus. Now you're being dumb or trolling. All timelines. All realities are all DS. One DS. All canon. Multiversity stated there is one DS. Nothing else was addressed other then establishing there is just one DS. Different timelines are still aspect of one DS. doesn't matter if timeline changes it still canon.

All three timeslines of Legion remained intact. Meaning showings of DS remained the same which again as we established one DS. So canon. Prove they all somehow drastically changed to the point GDS or the second DS story are no longer existent or drastically different now.

No because he manipulated time and events were going as they were happening for the first time. older DS manipulated like it wasn't just regular time travel too and protected the future

Originally posted by -K-M-
Didn't say that now did I? But we know for a fact he was weaker. Also yes he needed energy to become more powerful. Where or where did he say he has more control over the oe? Burden is on you to prove he was stronger. That would be faulty as they went to great length to say the opposite

I'm avoiding the question? Har! You're avoiding on panel statement and showings 😬 and no he never made a comment who would win as he thought younger DS would give his body freely and see his thinking. He didn't expect it to go as he did. Just read the issue I'm tired of repeating myself

Because that's what DS said and shown. Ok yep we have officially approached I don't like it so I'm ignoring it debate now

Originally posted by -K-M-
Jesus. Now you're being dumb or trolling. All timelines. All realities are all DS. One DS. All canon. Multiversity stated there is one DS. Nothing else was addressed other then establishing there is just one DS. Different timelines are still aspect of one DS. doesn't matter if timeline changes it still canon.

All three timeslines of Legion remained intact. Meaning showings of DS remained the same which again as we established one DS. So canon. Prove they all somehow drastically changed to the point GDS or the second DS story are no longer existent or drastically different now.

No because he manipulated time and events were going as they were happening for the first time. older DS manipulated like it wasn't just regular time travel too and protected the future

You actually did say that. You said that it's what DS said. Yeah he woke up weak and need energy to refresh/sustain himself, but even after doing that he was still super old and dying and needed a younger body. And no the burden's not on me, you're the one making the claim that Young DS was better at everything including manipulating the OE and telepathically therefor old DS's feats should be applicable therefor the burden is on you to back that claim.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm saying that since old DS doesn't remember the fact that he already turned down the body switch it's obviously not the version who was given the choice and turned it down. They may THINK the GDS is what's eventually the way the end of DS's life plays out, but apparently it's not. I don't blame them for getting it wrong, I mean it's set WAY in the future and who knows how DC will recton the universe 3 years from now lol. It's also possible that there's some ultra complicated metaphysical process at play that we don't understand, either way "there's only one DS therefor all DS feats are valid" isn't really applicable.

No that's not what he said and showed. As far as I know young DS never proved himself as being superior in regards to things like manipulating the OE or telepathy. If he had said/shown that kind of thing I'm pretty sure you'd have posted it by now.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You actually did say that. You said that it's what DS said. Yeah he woke up weak and need energy to refresh/sustain himself, but even after doing that he was still super old and dying. And no the burden's not on me, you're the one making the claim that Young DS was better at everything including manipulating the OE and telepathically therefor old DS's feats should be applicable therefor the burden is on you to back that claim.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm saying that since old DS doesn't remember the fact that he already turned down the body switch it's obviously not the version who was given the choice and turned it down. They may THINK the GDS is what's eventually the way the end of DS's life plays out, but apparently it's not. I don't blame them for getting it wrong, I'm it's set WAY in the future and who knows how DC will recton the universe 3 years from now lol

No that's not what he said and showed. As far as I know young DS never proved himself as being superior in regards to things like manipulating the OE or telepathy. If he had said/shown that kind of thing I'm pretty sure you'd have posted it by now.

Yes as he wasn't as powerful and needed to absorb more energy. Said that many times. 😬 You said in another post about telepathy and I even said no I was referring to energy ("No two instances from two different timelines old DS said he was weaker. One in direct power, other in body and energy. ie. future DS < present day DS. GDS absorbed energy to get back to his powerlevels of classic age as stated by him."😉. Why am I repeating myself? Again was asleep and in another timeline just was gone. So the timeline wouldny change for him much as he wasn't interacting and other stimuli was not impacting him. He was gone for a very long time. So had no bearing on him if time even changed.

Because that was happening for the first time. It's cause and effect with time travel. Has to happen for the first time before he can remember. LOOPER movie covers this very subject. If you haven't seen it watch it. This is exactly the same instance. Old DS even manipulated time for to protect the future as the universe was collapsing as he manipulated young DS to come to him

Again he fought future DS and did future DS do any of that? Nope. His energy levels were diminished and his body was weak. He didny even show ANY TELEPATHY in that story (2nd legion) 😬 Read the story. This is getting tiresome.