Odin vs Thanos/Darkseid

Originally posted by leonidas
ok, so.....sounds like gds IS indeed considered canon by dc comics. now, if it's specifically ruled a non-debatable issue by kmc, that's something different and could be addressed separately. i've no doubt galan or maybe km or abhi or maybe phil have the relevant scans supporting the new canon as recently outlined. if someone does, it should end the argument and have the ruling overturned. not that i care all that much one way or the other. i just figured it was canon in dc's eyes nowadays. /shrug

another question would be is that gds canon to LEGION? again, according to new dc, i figured it was. was it always? and if it is, that alone should be enough to have it canon imo, even though it takes place in the future. but maybe that's just me.

I'm only referring to pre 52 as there was three Legion timelines active. Pre-crisis, 1994 team and 2004 (earth prime) version. GDS is only canon to Pre-Crisis. The other legion darkseid story is the 1994 team.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Crisis:_Legion_of_3_Worlds

rebirth legion is going to appear soon. Legion from post 52 was likely from earth 2 but writer said "I think the ending is open to interpretation. The way I saw it was, it could be Earth 2. It might be Earth 1. It could be an Earth we've never seen before. It could be another universe."[

Originally posted by -K-M-
Yes as he wasn't as powerful and needed to absorb more energy. Said that many times. 😬 You said in another post about telepathy and I even said no I was referring to energy ("No two instances from two different timelines old DS said he was weaker. One in direct power, other in body and energy. ie. future DS < present day DS. GDS absorbed energy to get back to his powerlevels of classic age as stated by him."😉. Why am I repeating myself? Again was asleep and in another timeline just was gone. So the timeline wouldny change for him much as he wasn't interacting and other stimuli was not impacting him. He was gone for a very long time. So had no bearing on him if time even changed.

Because that was happening for the first time. It's cause and effect with time travel. Has to happen for the first time before he can remember. LOOPER movie covers this very subject. If you haven't seen it watch it. This is exactly the same instance. Old DS even manipulated time for to protect the future as the universe was collapsing as he manipulated young DS to come to him

Again he fought future DS and did future DS do any of that? Nope. His energy levels were diminished and his body was weak. He didny even show ANY TELEPATHY in that story (2nd legion) 😬 Read the story. This is getting tiresome.

You keep saying things like "DS said that..." and then I keep asking for a scan saying that young DS is superior in regards to the OE. If it doesn't exist, stop saying that DS said he was.

Well if you want to go to sources outside of things, what I'm talking about was specifically covered in Hulk: Future Imperfect when the younger version of Hulk threatened to break his own neck and the older version said something like "Go ahead. I don't remember this fight so the timeline diverged and you dying won't affect me at all" and then the younger Hulk was like "He's right, I read about it in a paper about temporal mechanics by Reed Richards". I'm saying that if it didn't yet happen to the old DS then it's not possible for the young DS to grow into the old DS. All versions of DS may spring from the same source, but that doesn't mean that every possible timeline variance(and there's an obvious variance here) is actually the same version of DS. Therefor old DS's feats aren't something that "our" DS are actually going to do because "our" DS will remember the fight if it ever actually happens to him. The whole "there's only one DS" thing is no where near a new concept. nvr and Trick used to bring up older sources that talked about the same kind of thing. Of course if you brought DCAU or the Hunger they still threw a fit lol

Did the younger version demonstrate his superiority in those fields when they fought?

Originally posted by darthgoober
You keep saying things like "DS said that..." and then I keep asking for a scan saying that young DS is superior in regards to the OE. If it doesn't exist, stop saying that DS said he was.

Well if you want to go to sources outside of things, what I'm talking about was specifically covered in Hulk: Future Imperfect when the younger version of Hulk threatened to break his own neck and the older version said something like "Go ahead. I don't remember this fight so the timeline diverged and you dying won't affect me at all" and then the younger Hulk was like "He's right, I read about it in a paper about temporal mechanics by Reed Richards". I'm saying that if it didn't yet happen to the old DS then it's not possible for the young DS to grow into the old DS. All versions of DS may spring from the same source, but that doesn't mean that every possible timeline variance(and there's an obvious variance here) is actually the same version of DS. Therefor old DS's feats aren't something that "our" DS are actually going to do because "our" DS will remember the fight if it ever actually happens to him. The whole "there's only one DS" thing is no where near a new concept. nvr and Trick used to bring up older sources that talked about the same kind of thing. Of course if you brought DCAU or the Hunger they still threw a fit lol

Did the younger version demonstrate his superiority in those fields when they fought?

http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=8563.0

enjoy

As he says there his younger self wouldn't have lost control but did there as he has become weaker over time.

it took 5 minutes to get just that scan. photobucket has gone to shit

Anyway, as I said I've been down this road a lot along time ago so I can guarantee we can argue in circles about this ad infinitum. That's the whole reason the rule was altered to include alternate timelines. I've simply been demonstrating WHY the rule is so important. It's just not something that can ever really be resolved.

Originally posted by -K-M-
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=8563.0

enjoy

Originally posted by darthgoober
No... Hell no. Links to an entire respect thread are not something I'm going to invest time arguing about. Trick beat that horse to death years and years ago lol

Only reason I posted the respect link as I cant open photobucket. Found this scan though and posted above

As he says there his younger self wouldn't have lost control but did there as he has become weaker over time. This was after he absorbed Modru and the Time Trapper. In the respect thread is other comments about him being weaker, but its taking forever to load and they changed it so ads cover the pic and have to hit x before can see which scan it is

Originally posted by -K-M-
Only reason I posted the respect link as I cant open photobucket. Found this scan though and posted above

As he says there his younger self wouldn't have lost control but did there as he has become weaker over time. This was after he absorbed Modru and the Time Trapper. In the respect thread is other comments about him being weaker, but its taking forever to load and they changed it so ads cover the pic and have to hit x before can see which scan it is

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but he says HIS younger self, and current DS doesn't actually grow into that guy because "our" DS will remember the fight and outcome. He doesn't tell "our" DS that HE'D be able to control the Daxamites. After all who knows how strong DS may become between now and when he takes his nap. Don't get me wrong because it's actually a pretty good piece of evidence, I'm just pointing out that even it's not definitive.

Actually yes he does as current DS wasn't pulled there in that story. So timeline wouldn't be affected. It was in the second legion story where present day DS went into the future. Present day DS wouldn't know anything about the GDS events as he wasn't there.

GDS was pre-crisis legion. second legion was reboot team ie. 1994 team. Separate Legion team all together. Other examples in the respect thread. Again all DS stories became canon to DS thanks to multiversity

Originally posted by -K-M-
Actually yes he does as current DS wasn't pulled there in that story. So timeline wouldn't be affected. It was in the second legion story where present day DS went into the future.

GDS was pre-crisis legion. second legion was reboot team ie. 1994 team. Separate Legion team all together. Other examples in the respect thread. Again all DS stories became canon to DS thanks to multiversity

Originally posted by TheHulkster
It's not "even after he was absorbed by The Source". It's "because he was absorbed by The Source". He is using the power of The Source to do all of this.

And regarding the Scans of Darkseid allegedly teleporting Daxam and Apolkolips. Isn't that non-canon?

You don't get Source's power when you get absorbed in it.

No, time trapper recounted it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Alternate timeline. Digi amended the rule about non cannon sources to include alternate timelines way back when specifically to deal with people bringing it up in every DS thread.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11227127/m3.jpg.html

That is from post crisis LOSH v4 4 if you are wondering.

Originally posted by leonidas
oh, and has there been any definitive proof that the LEGION future IS the future of the dc 616 (so-to-speak)?

Originally posted by abhilegend
It's not an alternate future. DC doesn't works on the same rules as marvel where every future reality is an alternate reality.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/11227127/m3.jpg.html

That is from post crisis LOSH v4 4 if you are wondering.

Omg I'm not even going to start to get into this with you, I'm wrapping up with KM and he's way more reasonable than you are lol. As I said early on, if you want it to be recognized as an exception get a mod ruling.

Originally posted by darthgoober
It didn't happen to the older guy in the story from the other end. It's GOT to be a different guy because the future version of "our" DS would know that he's not going to surrender his body.

You do realize these are two separate stories yet? Have you read the end of the second legion story?

Even Johns during Final Crisis said GDS was still canon and in tact. Older Legion team had the same history as pre-crisis legion and specifically refered to GDS. Other examples include in Booster Gold vol. 2, #32 he went to daxam during the GDS event. In a recent New 52 Legion story, a Daxamite said this his that "still mourn how Darkseid used us for violence" in Legion of Super-Heroes vol. 7, #3

It's canon and unchanged.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Omg I'm not even going to start to get into this with you, I'm wrapping up with KM and he's way more reasonable than you are lol. As I said early on, if you want it to be recognized as an exception get a mod ruling.

Run away if you like. Why would I get a mod ruling for something which is already Canon? Get a mod ruling by yourself that it's non Canon and get back.

Otherwise don't waste our time.

Originally posted by -K-M-
You do realize these are two separate stories yet? Have you read the end of the second legion story?

Even Johns during Final Crisis said GDS was still canon and in tact. Older Legion team had the same history as pre-crisis legion and specifically refered to GDS. Other examples include in Booster Gold vol. 2, #32 he went to daxam during the GDS event. In a recent New 52 Legion story, a Daxamite said this his that "still mourn how Darkseid used us for violence" in Legion of Super-Heroes vol. 7, #3

It's canon and unchanged.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Concession accepted.

Run away if you like. Why would I get a mod ruling for something which is already Canon? Get a mod ruling by yourself that it's non Canon and get back.

Otherwise don't waste our time.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I never said that the timeline disappeared or that it's not still relevant to those or were/are involved with it. I just said that the older version of DS doesn't have "our" DS's memories so it can't actually be the same guy. They may spring from the same source, but they're not the same guy.

As I said did you read the end? They altered time so present day DS DID NOT remember this. So old DS wouldn't remember either.

Since photobucket is being wonky here is the summary

"Darkseid was actually bringing his own past self into the present, and teaming up with him. The older Darkseid, fearing that his body was succumbing to thousands of years of decay, brought his younger self back as a fresher body with which he could use to conquer the universe. Although the removal of a God from his own time period would cause the destabilizing and rupturing of the entire Timestream in that era, Darkseid's plan had been to create a dark matter buffer ten years in his own past... so that although the entire history of creation would be obliterated, he would be able to rule the future. What he didn't count on was, the young Darkseid having no problem with brutally murdering his older self. Unfortunately, the Darkseid of the 31st Century had not yet completed his machinations. Their time period was still vulnerable, and began to collapse around them, along with everything else. Although the past had been erased, Kid Quantum figured out that there was still about half an hour left of structured time behind them... enough to go back, and prevent Darkseid from being killed, or being displaced in time. Kid Quantum, Superboy, Live Wire and Violet traveled backwards, and while the primary Legion subdued the older Darkseid, the Legionnaires from the future pushed the younger one back into the portal from whence he had came, stopping the temporal destruction before it could begin. Young Clark Kent himself delivered the final blows to Darkseid, subduing him and completely draining him of any remaining power in the fight. Clark Kent was returned to his own time with his memory erased by Saturn Girl, and existence was saved"

Meaning the conversation never happened and the fight was erased. So time was retained.

Originally posted by -K-M-
You do realize these are two separate stories yet? Have you read the end of the second legion story?

Even Johns during Final Crisis said GDS was still canon and in tact. Older Legion team had the same history as pre-crisis legion and specifically refered to GDS. Other examples include in Booster Gold vol. 2, #32 he went to daxam during the GDS event. In a recent New 52 Legion story, a Daxamite said this his that "still mourn how Darkseid used us for violence" in Legion of Super-Heroes vol. 7, #3

It's canon and unchanged.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/33308/1702950-darkseid199.jpg
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/33308/1702951-darkseid200.jpg

http://www.uiardejapis.es/notis/2011/9/110918_portela_legion/lsh_31.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
It's already covered in the alternate timelines rule. GDS DS doesn't have current DS's memories so it's not actually the same guy.

Originally posted by -K-M-
As I said did you read the end? They altered time so present day DS DID NOT remember this. So old DS wouldn't remember either.

Since photobucket is being wonky here is the summary

"Darkseid was actually bringing his own past self into the present, and teaming up with him. The older Darkseid, fearing that his body was succumbing to thousands of years of decay, brought his younger self back as a fresher body with which he could use to conquer the universe. Although the removal of a God from his own time period would cause the destabilizing and rupturing of the entire Timestream in that era, Darkseid's plan had been to create a dark matter buffer ten years in his own past... so that although the entire history of creation would be obliterated, he would be able to rule the future. What he didn't count on was, the young Darkseid having no problem with brutally murdering his older self. Unfortunately, the Darkseid of the 31st Century had not yet completed his machinations. Their time period was still vulnerable, and began to collapse around them, along with everything else. Although the past had been erased, Kid Quantum figured out that there was still about half an hour left of structured time behind them... enough to go back, and prevent Darkseid from being killed, or being displaced in time. Kid Quantum, Superboy, Live Wire and Violet traveled backwards, and while the primary Legion subdued the older Darkseid, the Legionnaires from the future pushed the younger one back into the portal from whence he had came, stopping the temporal destruction before it could begin. Young Clark Kent himself delivered the final blows to Darkseid, subduing him and completely draining him of any remaining power in the fight. Clark Kent was returned to his own time with his memory erased by Saturn Girl, and existence was saved"

Meaning the conversation never happened and the fight was erased. So time was retained.

Originally posted by darthgoober
See that's totally different, that's what you should have brought up earlier. Although it still changes what happened in that alternate timeline which basically throws doubts on the feats being admissable since they didn't actually happen. By the same token, King Thor changing time so that his reign means that feats from other characters in the arc aren't admissable even though all he was doing was changing the 616 timeline. And of course abhi brings up this kind of thing to point out that the Defenders feats from the time they took over the world aren't admissable lol.

Not hard to understand.

Now could you provide us a proof that Legion of Superheroes is an alternate reality?