Let's ignore the fact that the Chosen One's ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy was the destruction of Palpatine. Nope, no reason to think Palpatine played a role at all. The Banite Sith tried to create the Chosen One, tried to unbalance the Force (and succeeded), and then the Chosen One happens to show up as the Force is unbalanced by the Banite Sith with the purpose of restoring the balance, and apparently this is just a massive coincidence. 🙄
Re: Darth Plagueis/Palpatine's Meditation War Never Created Anakin Skywalker
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Anakin Skywalker was born in 41.9 BBY.Assuming 3:4:14 ArS is 32.0 BBY, then Anakin Skywalker is 9 years, 10 months, and 24 days old of The Phantom Menace.
Note that the above isn't critical to this discussion, but it's worth noting.
The Yinchorri Uprising took place in 33.0 BBY.
In the Darth Plagueis novel, it states that the duo's meditation took place 8 years prior to the event.
Thus, the meditation occurred roughly around 41 BBY.
Even if we assume the mental war took place the earliest it possibly could (i.e. a day short of 42 BBY), the math doesn't add up.
After all, Anakin Skywalker would have been *conceived* well into 42 BBY (likely around 42.7 BBY).
Also, if we make note of the ArS timeline established above, then Anakin Skywalker would have been conceived a full year before it happened.
Thus, we have Anakin Skywalker being conceived numerous months after the latest possible time the meditation could have occurred.
In other words, Darth Plagueis and Palpatine's war never gave birth to Anakin Skywalker. Something else did. 👆 [/B]
Let's list all the assumptions that Ant makes here:
1. That immaculate conception by the Force takes nine months. It could have been a week for all we know. After all, the Force circumvented a ludicrous number of other biological barriers in Anakin's conception.
2. That the Force can't create preemptive countermeasures, even though a huge part of its modus operanti is giving people premonitions and precognition. Heck, the whole Chosen One prophecy was done several thousand years in advance.
3. That it's just a massive coincidence that -
a) The Banite sith tried to conceive the Chosen One
b) Sidious and Plagueis unbalance the Force (this has to be true, given that they and other Force users sense it happening just as they finish their meditation, or else you posit an implausible coincidence)
c) The Chosen One, whose entire purpose is to restore balance to the Force, right around when two Sith unbalance it.
d) The balance of the Force just happens to be restored, and thus the Chosen One's mission fulfilled, on the death of the last of the duo (Sidious).
4. That the novel should be considered infallible with respect to how many years before the Yinchorri Uprising they meditate, but not with respect to Sidious and Plagueis's deductions about Anakin's creation (and apparently they never bothered to check dates or something).
Now Ant's response to this has been to demand proof that the Force conceived Anakin quickly, and presumably to demand proof that the Force did it preemptively. But this misses the point. The more rigorous approach is to consider which model is more plausible, or rather, which makes the less absurd assumptions -
Ant's model: That it's all one massive coincidence that the Chosen One is conceived to restore balance to the Force right around when Plagueis and Sidious seemingly unbalance it, and that Anakin fulfills his mission right when Sidious dies.
Our model: That the Force conceived Anakin either quickly or preemptively, or there was just a dating error.
It's less incredulous that the same god-like energy field that could conceive a being of Anakin's power could also accelerate the pregnancy process, than it is for the whole thing to be one red herring because of like seven incredibly absurd coincidences.
Plagueis and Sidious simply were far more cosmologically powerful than Valkorion, or any Sith/non-mortis users of the dark side before them. Accept it.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Absolutely no clue what you're talking about. 😂I never contended with the notion Palpatine is responsible for Skywalker's creation.
There's even a chance that he is the sole reason for Skywalker's creation.
Plagueis, on the other hand, can't claim even a 1/100th of the conception.
Um, Sidious was weaker than Plagueis when Anakin was conceived. Unless if you think the Force was acting preemptively, in which case your whole point becomes irrelevant.
1. That immaculate conception by the Force takes nine months. It could have been a week for all we know. After all, the Force circumvented a ludicrous number of other biological barriers in Anakin's conception.
Actually, that's not a necessary speculation for my math to hold true.
Under the basis that the event happened after 41.5 BBY, the conception could have lasted a second.
2. That the Force can't create preemptive countermeasures, even though a huge part of its modus operanti is giving people premonitions and precognition. Heck, the whole Chosen One prophecy was done several thousand years in advance.
Absolutely not something I dispute. If you read my above post in the other thread, it's factoring that in completely.
4. That the novel should be considered infallible with respect to how many years before the Yinchorri Uprising they meditate, but not with respect to Sidious and Plagueis's deductions about Anakin's creation (and apparently they never bothered to check dates or something).
The year is confirmed by numerous individuals. And yes, I am speculating they can tell time, but dismissing the notion they know the will of the Force.
Luke Skywalker, likewise, has the same feelings.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Um, Sidious was weaker than Plagueis when Anakin was conceived. Unless if you think the Force was acting preemptively, in which case your whole point becomes irrelevant.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=635850&pagenumber=17#post16001832
GG. 👆
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=635850&pagenumber=17#post16001832GG. 👆
Plagueis and Sidious seemed to think otherwise. Even Palpatine, in his narcissism, attributed the creation to their joint efforts, and not his own badassery.
The results of their meditation was heavily emphasized to be a pivotal shift - and while it's possible that they were just on drugs and delusional about it, it seems highly unlikely given that, well, they aren't idiots. Nor can this explain their sudden breakthrough in midichlorian manipulation.
The other factor your theory leaves unexplained is why the Force didn't directly fight back against their shenanigans. Our explanation is that it retaliated by conceiving of the Chosen One - yours is that it just let them do it 'cause whatever.
Since your dates-arguments is kind of irrelevant as your own hypothesis also requires the Force to have acted preemptively, I think the simple option is just to defer to Sidious and Plagueis's conclusion because they were intimately familiar with the balance of the Force, how important their meditation was, etc.
So you concede it's speculation? I love it. 👆
You also have to support the notion that the Force anticipated it ahead of time with a source, by the way.
I provided an argument factoring that in, but that doesn't mean I agree.
You don't have a source. You're just speculating.
Can I take my victory trophy now, or do you want to dispute this for a little longer?
What are you talking about? Why do you think the ritual took months of intense meditation? The Force was fighting to resist their will, and it failed. That's why the feat is impressive in the first place; several things have imbalanced the Force to varying degrees, such as galactic-scale wars, but Sidious and Plagueis did it by themselves through sheer will. Not only that, but the shift was also unprecedentedly strong, so much so that the Jedi lost their ability to see the future, and the Sith could directly influence Midichlorians. Anakin's birth was supposed to be the Force's form of retaliation, the vehicle through which the balance could be restored.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote that the Force was resisting their will and failed?
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.
And nope, since Anakin was born before it happened.
Continuity error; the intent is clear in the text, even Pablo Hidalgo agrees.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.
Proof that Darth Plagueis knows the will of the Force?
Luke Skywalker says he doesn't.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
[i]Continuity error; the intent is clear in the text.