Darth Plagueis/Palpatine's Meditation War Never Created Anakin Skywalker

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So you concede it's speculation? I love it. 👆

Both sides are speculating, the difference is that our speculation isn't as implausible, fits the conclusions of the most qualified experts (.i.e. Sidious and Plagueis), and, if we can be real for a moment, is obviously what was intended by Luceno.

You also have to support the notion that the Force anticipated it ahead of time with a source, by the way.

That applies to your idea too. Heck, it applies to the whole concept of a prophecy...

So, essentially, Sidious and Plagueis actively try to unbalance the Force, and feel like they've accomplished an unprecedented milestone. You think that they did something but it was marginal and they were just being delusional. Funny; were they delusional when they noticed that they were able to manipulate midichlorians to an extent never before witnessed in history? And it just happens to be that a Forceful being conceived by midichlorians arises...while they meddle with midichlorians. mmm

As Neph said, rock solid. And so the temples of Hego and Sheev further crumble.

Ant's forgetting that the Prophecy of Anakin's life and existence was conceived millennia before his birth. If the Force can't anticipate it ahead of time, then I guess the Prophecy was just made-up as a Jedi bed-time story that coincidentally proved true thousands of years into the future.

@The Ellimist:

Which part of the following is speculation:

- The date of Anakin Skywalker's birth

- The date of the meditation

- The fact one took place before the other.

Anything beyond that is speculation.

Note that anything beyond that is where your case rests.

The problem with Ant's "you can't prove it hurr hurr" tactic is that he thinks the burden is on us to establish a near 100% certainty that Plagueis and Sidious created Anakin, when in reality it just has to be the most likely theory, which it is. There are too many things that happen to fall into place. EDIT: posted before Ant's recent reply

Originally posted by SunRazer
Ant's forgetting that the Prophecy of Anakin's life and existence was conceived millennia before his birth. If the Force can't anticipate it ahead of time, then I guess the Prophecy was just made-up as a Jedi bed-time story that coincidentally proved true thousands of years into the future.

That has nothing to do with this.

The Force could have birthed Anakin to a thousand different reasons from around 45 BBY to 4 ABY.

It's speculation to choose which. I don't care to know, since it's not relevant to debate.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The problem with Ant's "you can't prove it hurr hurr" tactic is that he thinks the burden is on us to establish a near 100% certainty that Plagueis and Sidious created Anakin, when in reality it just has to be the most likely theory, which it is. There are too many things that happen to fall into place. EDIT: posted before Ant's recent reply

Thus, it's anything but likely. Your claim is so insane it has to be proven.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
That's been factored. As per the BrS dating, Anakin Skywalker would have been born 42.58 BBY.

You mean conceived? Sure, let's go with that.

Assuming the meditation went on a day short of a year (the maximum it could have occurred), it's still after the BrS dating.

Well, let's see. So the balance was shifted roughly 8 years before roughly 33 BBY. Which means it could have been 8 years and 4 months before 33 BBY, or 33.2 BBY, or whatever; the point is that both are approximations. Then you have the timeframe for the meditation having been "many months", a third approximation to throw in the mix.

If you assume the highest reasonable values for all three approximations, the first rituals could have feasibly been before Anakin's birth. If you assume the lowest reasonable values for all three approximations, the shift would be well after Anakin's birth. Either way, the blatantly obvious intention was that they coincided, and Luceno probably wasn't looking at the decimals from obscure sources when he wrote Darth Plagueis; what are you trying to accomplish by denying the obvious?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
😂

That has nothing to do with this.

The Force could have birthed Anakin to a thousand different reasons from around 45 BBY to 4 ABY.

It's speculation to choose which. I don't care to know, since it's not relevant to debate.

It has everything to do with this. It makes your point about Anakin being born later than the meditation absolutely irrelevant. The Force isn't bound by the laws of time, as we've proven repeatedly. You're just incoherently screaming "but Anakin was born after!" time and time again like a flat-earther whose shower went cold.

So what if he was born afterwards? We know the Force knows events ahead of time.

You also failed to respond to the point about how the fact that the meditation took months means that it could've began before Anakin's conception.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You mean conceived? Sure, let's go with that.

Well, let's see. So the balance was shifted roughly 8 years before roughly 33 BBY. Which means it could have been 8 years and 4 months before 33 BBY, or 33.2 BBY, or whatever; the point is that both are approximations. Then you have the timeframe for the meditation having been "many months", a third approximation to throw in the mix.

If you assume the highest reasonable values for all three approximations, the shift could have feasibly been before Anakin's birth. If you assume the lowest reasonable values for all three approximations, the shift would be well after Anakin's birth. Either way, the blatantly obvious intention was that they coincided, and Luceno wasn't looking at the decimals when he wrote Darth Plagueis; what are you trying to accomplish by denying the obvious?

The balance had to have been shifted at any time prior to 41.5 BBY.

Thus, assuming it took a full year (the max), 42.58 > prior to 41.5 BBY.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You also failed to respond to the point about how the fact that the meditation took months means that it could've began before Anakin's conception.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@The Ellimist:

Which part of the following is speculation:

- The date of Anakin Skywalker's birth

The time issue applies to the very existence of the prophecy too. It also applies to yours which requires the Force's knowledge of Sidious surpassing Plagueis and, presumably, Valkorion.

BTW, you're kind of conceding that RotJ Sidious > Valkorion, or did you already think that?

Anything beyond that is speculation.

We're looking at the same data, but for some reason you think that the conclusions you draw from the data are equivalent to the data itself and immune from criticism, since you aren't actually defending it.

Look, at this point you're just not doing this right on an epistemological level. While everyone in science/statistics/economics/etc. tries to figure out which model best explains the data, you just call all such models "speculation", pretend that your own model isn't, and then repeat that on a loop.

Sunrazer might start to cry. Your bias is pretty obvious, guy.

😂

You can't use assumptions like yours in a debate, lol.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I can, since for something to be used in debate, it has to be proven. You can't bring speculation into debate. It's not canon.

And yet how often do you bring up the nonsense about Revan not being amped on Yavin and this and that about the 97% absorption of Vitiate's Lightning, etc.?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sunrazer might start to cry. Your bias is pretty obvious, guy.

😂

It's like being flogged with warm lettuce. 😂

Originally posted by SunRazer
And yet how often do you bring up the nonsense about Revan not being amped on Yavin and this and that about the 97% absorption of Vitiate's Lightning, etc.?

Your argument has no weight in any actual material for it to even be a debate argument.

Ant is literally arguing against basic processes used in the scientific method, statistics, probability, occam's razor and like everyday life. mmm

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's like being flogged with warm lettuce. 😂

Even if open up the idea for assumptions, the assumption the meditation war caused the birth is not foremost on the assumption list. 😂

First we have to assume that the meditation war actually caused anything (only a 50% chance).

And then we have to assume it specifically reacted to that and not any other damaging Force-shifting event (like a 5% chance).