Originally posted by Nephthys
People said it was Dooku's opinion, but yes I see it was Ventress who said it. Then why is this even an issue? Ventress is even more ignorant than Dooku is. Who cares about some petulant shit she said at some point. Besides which, that its a complex ability doesn't mean its a particularly powerful one. I mean, Ventress wasn't even taught Force Lightning or like she said, any of the real deal Sith stuff. This doesn't imply that she or Dooku are remotely in Syn's league.
Asajj didn't compare Dooku to the ancient Sith, dear. She compared her powers taught by Dooku, i.e. raising the dead, as "lesser arts" compared to what she knows Dooku can do.
She's performing sh!t that Sorzus Syn finds incredible, but then goes on to say Dooku knows even greater tricks and Sith techniques. She certainly isn't ignorant of Tyranus' power, thus the comparison is valid.
Originally posted by Azronger
Senya can stomp a bunch of fodder and has a lot of experience, so she's about Kas'im-level in skill and Force augmentation. Vaylin is a bit below PoD Bane-level in skill and Force augmentation, due to her being inferior to Senya in skill and not being strong enough in the Force to beat her. So I'd say both of them are high-level fodder as overall duelists.Senya is an average Force sensitive, maybe a bit above. Vaylin can do a Force Maelstrom and ignite flammable objects with Lightning, as well as crush massive buildings with TK. Solidly below Dooku, but she can compete.
Overall, Senya's slightly above average, maybe Kanan-level overall, and Vaylin's about AotC Anakin-level.
Possibly the most cancerous thing I've read on here
Originally posted by MythLord
Asajj didn't compare Dooku to the ancient Sith, dear. She compared her powers taught by Dooku, i.e. raising the dead, as "lesser arts" compared to what she knows Dooku can do.She's performing sh!t that Sorzus Syn finds incredible, but then goes on to say Dooku knows even greater tricks and Sith techniques. She certainly isn't ignorant of Tyranus' power, thus the comparison is valid.
Um, what? No she isn't. She immediately makes it clear that she's talking about the Ancient Sith:
"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know. I am no fool," she said angrily.
As if he didn't know that. As if she needed to convince him she was deadly.
"I have learned much about the Sith. Their lineage and their greatness."
Shes specifically talking about the Sith in general, their lineage and greatness, not Dooku. And from what shes heard, she should be being taught more impressive stuff. Heck, if anything this indicates that Dooku's teachings are lacking compared to the stuff shes heard about. If not as if he actually displays anything that advanced. Syn leaves him in the dust in that department.
And you're lying about Syn finding it incredible. Literally all she says is that its a complex ability. Syn's ability to create incredibly powerful amulets and Leviathans and stand amongst the Exiles marks her as far greater than Ventress' paltry abilities.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Respectfully, Neph, Azr would slaughter you in a debate.
Go **** a wall socket.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Um, what? No she isn't. She immediately makes it clear that she's talking about the Ancient Sith:"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know. I am no fool," she said angrily.
As if he didn't know that. As if she needed to convince him she was deadly.
"I have learned much about the Sith. Their lineage and their greatness."
Shes specifically talking about the Sith in general, their lineage and greatness, not Dooku.
And you're lying about Syn finding it incredible. Literally all she says is that its a complex ability. Syn's ability to create incredibly powerful amulets and Leviathans and stand amongst the Exiles marks her as far greater than Ventress' paltry abilities.
Um, she just says she saw the Sith lineage and realized Dooku's been teaching her lesser arts of it as oppose to what he truly knows about it. Clearly Dooku knows more about these "higher arts" that come from the greatness of these Sith than Asajj, and Ventress already knows spells that even Sorzus Syn, who can do all the things you listed, finds complex.
Defining complex: "something consisting of many different parts, that is complicated in nature". With that in mind, it seems to imply to me that Sorzus raising the dead required for her to have prep, if we take it literally, or it just wasn't an easy thing to do, if we look at it logically. Asajj is casually pulling it off.
Obviously Sorzus is more knowledgable and powerful than Asajj, given her hype and other sorcery feats, but the fact that something she finds difficult is a "lesser art" compared to the "greatness of the Sith" that Dooku knew... well, let's just say that definitely places Tyranus in her general league.
Originally posted by MythLord
Um, she just says she saw the Sith lineage and realized Dooku's been teaching her lesser arts of it as oppose to what he truly knows about it. Clearly Dooku knows more about these "higher arts" that come from the greatness of these Sith than Asajj, and Ventress already knows spells that even Sorzus Syn, who can do all the things you listed, finds complex.Defining complex: "something consisting of many different parts, that is complicated in nature". With that in mind, it seems to imply to me that Sorzus raising the dead required for her to have prep, if we take it literally, or it just wasn't an easy thing to do, if we look at it logically. Asajj is casually pulling it off.
Obviously Sorzus is more knowledgable and powerful than Asajj, given her hype and other sorcery feats, but the fact that something she finds difficult is a "lesser art" compared to the "greatness of the Sith" that Dooku knew... well, let's just say that definitely places Tyranus in her general league.
Errrrrrrrr, you basically just agreed with me and then made an assumption that "clearly" Dooku knows more. Nothing as such is indicated by Ventress. She makes no mention of Dooku's abilities. The only thing shes going off of are stories about the Sith, not anything shes witnessed from him.
Thats an incredible assumption. Theres no evidence Syn found it difficult, your just making shit up and stretching it as far as you need to fit your argument. You can perform something complex casually, even going by that definition. Juggling is pretty complex and people can do it with their eyes closed. Or insert any other feat people would term as indisputably complex that can still be performed without much effort.
No it doesn't. It's hearsay, for one thing. Not actual evidence in any form. Ventress is just going off of legends and assumptions while being a petulant child. Secondly, just because someone can do a similar thing to someone else doesn't make them comparable. Kaan did something Krayt did in his prime and in fact one upped him on it. Kaan > Post-Rebirth Krayt????? Hardly.
Besides which, Syn's section in the Book of Sith was written when she still discovering the secrets of sorcery, in its infant stages no less. Pretty sure she's literally the first Sith to learn sorcery, lol. Its not representative of her prime. And theres no indication that its the same technique we're talking about. Syn's description is of a ritual that requires spoken incantations and raises legions of dead that last for millennia. Which I don't believe is accurate with what Ventress does. So she could just be using a similar ability, thats perhaps on a smaller scale and easier to perform, without the need for spoken phrases.
At any rate, this comparison simply doesn't cut it.
Wolf I just read your reasoning for that and there's nothing which notes it was the Talisman that allowed Muur to compete with Krayt. In fact the Talisman seems to simply have the unique ability to create Rakghouls and contain Muur's spirit but all of Muur's accomplishments while bound to the Talisman were attributed to his own power.
And no, there's no evidence pointing to her having made a third amulet greater then the other two or evidence that it would have allowed her to surpass Muur or Dreypa as their power is not based solely off what they receive from these artifacts.
Satele Shan pointed out that Jedi could not contend with Knights of Zakuul in the battlefield. She also pointed out that Knights of Zakuul do not restrict themselves to any aspect of the Force, and this is why they are more competent than an average Jedi Knight.In the nutshell:
Zakuul Knights don't limit themselves to studying one side of the Force, instead teaching balance and exploration. Knights have their own relationships with the Force, but are encouraged to share their findings with the rest of the order. No area is deemed "weak" or "a dangerous path"--they are all parts of a larger, limitless power.
Taken from the Codex Entry titled "Knights of Zakuul."
So they have better Force abilities than average Jedi. Too bad my point was in regards to lightsaber combat.
Do you really need to tell me that it was a joint feat?Senya's role in that feat suggests that she should be logically capable of lifting tons of rock (or material) on her own.
Gravestone is a huge vessel. Even a minor contribution to its lift implies the capability of lifting tons of rock (or substance) at individual capacity.
And what exactly would “tons of rock” mean? You can’t prove it’s any bigger than the pile she shoved aside in chapter 16, so this is, as I said, not quantifiable. And therefore irrelevant.
Such as?
1.K’Kruhk pulling down a freighter:
Quinlan Vos dominating K’Kruhk:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3846851-vs+k%27kruhk.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3846852-vs+k%27kruhk2.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3846853-vs+k%27kruhk3.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3846854-vs+k%27kruhk4.png
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Dooku dominating Quinlan Vos:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/3544056-2151173-new_picture__12_.jpg
2.Anakin Skywalker ragdolling a huge dreadnought:
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5469007-6557702734-43146.jpg
The size of the dreadnought:
http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5469011-0903235042-37535.jpg
Dooku’s disciples dominating Anakin:
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Ventress may have been more powerful than Saato or Trenox:
Perhaps Tyranus' most powerful student was Asaji Ventress.
-Star Wars Fact File 116
Dooku dominating Ventress:
He stood tall, imposing, and as Vos raced toward him, Dooku didn't flinch. He lowered his sword and extended his hand. Vos rose in the air and then Dooku shoved, sending the Jedi slamming into one of the pillars. The count turned, almost nonchalantly performing the same maneuver with Ventress. The wind was knocked out of her and she couldn't breathe. Stubbornly, using her hate the way she had taught Vos to do, she summoned energy to to push herself up to a kneeling position, still clutching her lightsaber.
Dooku's lip curled in a manner that might have been a smile or a snarl. Abruptly, Ventress found herself dangling in in the air as he whirled her around behind him and then threw her down like a spoiled child discarding a disliked toy.
The pain was excruciating, but Ventress remained conscious long enough to see that Dooku wasn't yet done. She could only watch helplessly as she slid, headfirst, into the unyielding stone of a meticulously carved bench. Then the world went white, and she knew nothing more.
-Dark Disciple
"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.
Dooku looked around. "Or what?"
Her face went pale.
Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. "Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest." Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "It's the blood vessels I hate, "Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside like balloons about to pop."
"P-p-p-please..."
"But worse anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowed around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite." A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's voice went dark and far away. "All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitless stars, the things you've done..."
The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream. "The Troxan delegation is at the door."
Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice.
-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
3.Kenobi blocking Asajj’s attack:
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Dooku dominating Kenobi:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4421345-6669835845-y4Yag.gif
Does Vaylin compare?
Here:A shrill whine rose like a scream: the sound of pressurized coolant spewing from a punctured hyperdrive. Senya had just long enough to register what had happened before the damaged hyperdrive exploded.
She came to a few seconds later, groggy, disoriented and with her ears ringing. The blast had thrown her twenty meters; tiny bits of twisted, melted metal that had once been the hull of the ship lay all around her. Forcing herself to her hands and knees, Senya turned her head from side to side, looking for Vaylin. But all she saw was smoke and flame; the fires had spread to consume the entire camp.
Arcann!
Somehow Senya rose unsteadily to her feet, then set off in a stumbling run back towards her ship and her son. As the flames fell farther and farther behind her, her head slowly cleared. Her thoughts briefly turned to the fallen knights, consumed by the funeral pyre that had once been their camp. They'd risked their lives to help her, and Vaylin had slaughtered them all.
She and Arcann were alone again. No allies. Nowhere to turn. But she was still alive… somehow.
The blast should have vaporized me.
There was only one explanation for her survival: Vaylin must have used the Force to shield them both from the worst of the explosion.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: A Mother's Hope
Fair enough. Does Senya has any impressive defensive showings, though? If not, I don’t see this as being better than Dooku casually deflecting his own Force lightning that one-shot Asajj Ventress.
WTF?With the rising flames, Senya finally witnessed the true carnage Vaylin had unleashed on the camp: dozens of Knights – bodies mutilated and mangled – had been tossed haphazardly amongst the scattered wreckage of ships and shuttles torn asunder.The full breadth of the slaughter sent a chill down her back; grim evidence of the horrors her daughter was capable of.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: A Mother's Hope
There are no ifs and buts about it. It is clearly a Yoda TIER showing.
This proved absolutely nothing, lmao. As I said, her methods if accomplishing this are unknown. And it’s not a Yoda-tier feat even if it were accomplished using the Force directly on the Knights. Killing a bunch of fodder is insignificant compared to beating a single powerful one.
Count Dooku performed that feat on Korriban, a place considerably strong in the Dark Side. The Starships he managed to move, were in corroded condition or wreaked, not in good shape. And he only moved them; not lift them or chug them like missiles and/or tear them apart.
Considering Dooku grew in power after four years, the nexus is irrelevant.
And so what if they were corroded? Lol. And yes, he did “chug them like missiles” to the point where the ship exploded into dozens of pieces and “vehicle parts began to fall like rain”:
They moved farther into the darkness.
"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."
"This time I'll be prepared."
"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."
They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.
Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Then he knew.
"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.
"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."
-Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
In contrast to Dooku's showing, Vaylin literally tore the Starships apart (including proper Shuttles) in fully functional state, on Ord Mantell. You understand how bigShuttles are? Vaylin's showing is clearly on another level than that of Dooku.
Show me the feat and we’ll see.
And Count Dooku never conjured a Force-maelstrom.
He did:
Soara cried out. Anakin felt the moment spin out into impossible time, time that froze everything, even his heart.
He saw the blue shimmersilk move like a breeze as Zan Arbor took advantage of the distraction to dash for the entrance. Blue Force-lightning erupted in the darkness, a barrier shielding her from the others, giving her space to run.
-Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
You think that Vaylin is not capable of such showings?
If this is your only response it might as well be your concession. I ask again: Has Vaylin done any of the things Dooku has?
Originally posted by Nephthys
BTW:Uh, yes it is. Theres only two of them, one of which is Senya.
Do you need me to explain how this is quantifiable? Or can you work out what 1 out of 2 represents by yourself?
Unless you have definitive proof Senya did half the job, then it's unquantifiable. So we're back to her hurling debris.
