WW 3 Black Adam Vs Beta Ray Bill

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil: a couple questions: if you think he was really that far above those others, how was it that hawkman and alan would have taken him out had they not stopped? if hawkman could do that to adam with Alan's mace, bill could do worse with the hammer imo, given how strong bill is....

and i'm curious: you think had superman showed up to tackle him alone adam would have wrecked him too? saying he'd wreck bill is...saying an awful lot imo. I mean the dude has some really good showings. it's the same as saying he'd wreck thor, essentially. I don't see that happening, personally.

re: the prime issue: imo that was a completely different case because the heroes were not holding back and prime was actually killing many of them. against adam, he smacked around some of the bigger guns who were holding back and blatantly not fighting at their best. who do you think was the single biggest threat he actually beat? alan? who with hawkman also had the chance to take him out... jonn? well, jonn is tough but...he's jonn. I sort of had the same argument with mindless hulk recently against a slew of avengers. he smacked them around some, they held back and it was a good showing, but not the showing some claim it to be imo.

in saying he's taken on whole teams that have individuals who would beat bill....I dunno man. there's some context to most of his fights with the jsa and when marvel steps in he's able to handle adam most of the time. just sounds like you're placing adam too far above a guy who's beaten thor more than once. without marvel, ww or superman (not even flash or hal were present) I just see this being more ninja law than not. sorry man, pretty sure we won't see eye to eye this time around because I still see this as being a close fight overall.

Originally posted by leonidas
@phil: a couple questions: if you think he was really that far above those others, how was it that hawkman and alan would have taken him out had they not stopped? if hawkman could do that to adam with Alan's mace, bill could do worse with the hammer imo, given how strong bill is....

Black Adam had just finished going through and beating the whole JSA, consisting of this line-up attacking him all at once:

[...]

After this point:

a). Alan puts his power in that mace
b). Black Adam was specifically already weakened from the battle beforehand [which he won, against all of them].
c). Hawkman sucker punched him as he was not even concentrated on him and he was still standing after repeated shots

Scans for all 3 points:

And this is supposed to not be a [ridiculously] good showing for Black Adam?
The same Hawkman who has broken Despero's teeth, with his normal-not-Alan Scott powered one? Getting free shots at a weakened Adam, who is not even focused on him?

C'mon, leo. Let's be reasonable.

Originally posted by zopzop
Of course if WW was there it'd be over. Lasso, command him to speak the magic word, fight over.

But that doesn't mean BRB would do just as well in Adam's place. Like I said, Martian Manhunter was attacking his mind while this was going on and Adam resisted. BRB has been owned by 'psychic pirates' on at least 2 different occasions on panel. It was a one shot both times too.

MM and everyone jobber to him, what are you not getting? If Bill went HAM, the planet wouldn't survive.

@philo, which of course was after beating most of those teams individually, from the Outsiders, to Doom Patrol, Teen Titans, and killing millions of people before they eventually all caught up to him and got beat down at once.

And then they had have Captain Marvel and Zatanna and the other mystics do a complete Deus Ex finisher on him.

Originally posted by krisblaze
WW3 Adam had the power of an additional god, and the righteous fury of a man out to massacre a country in the middle east.

Bill is dead.

Bill took an awful lot of abuse in Godkiller, and especially Stormbreaker though.

Standing in the middle of exploding moons and planets, Power Cosmic death grip on his naked back, being pancaked fly swatted by Galactus (Who can punch In Betweener to effect)..

He can probably take whatever Adam dish's out long enough to hammer nuke him.

The rest:

Originally posted by leonidas
and i'm curious: you think had superman showed up to tackle him alone adam would have wrecked him too? saying he'd wreck bill is...saying an awful lot imo. I mean the dude has some really good showings. it's the same as saying he'd wreck thor, essentially. I don't see that happening, personally.

Originally posted by leonidas
who do you think was the single biggest threat he actually beat? alan? who with hawkman also had the chance to take him out... jonn? well, jonn is tough but...he's jonn. I sort of had the same argument with mindless hulk recently against a slew of avengers. he smacked them around some, they held back and it was a good showing, but not the showing some claim it to be imo.

That's five characters that I could argue against Bill that Black Adam has beaten alongside more than a dozen others

Originally posted by Juntai
@philo, which of course was after beating most of those teams individually, from the Outsiders, to Doom Patrol, Teen Titans, and killing millions of people before they eventually all caught up to him and got beat down at once.

One of the points that gets massively overlooked is how much fighting Adam had done up to the end, and he was still beating whole teams of high-powered beings.

Lol, you can argue that all you want, but the problem is you'd be eternally wrong. Powergirl on the level of Bill? 😂 That's the problem with you D.C. boys, you are delusional when it comes to power levels.

I totally agree that Adam wrecks Bill(along with pretty much any herald you can think of), and I am certainly not trying to take away from his showing in WWIII, but lets be honest: if that team would have actually *used* the power(s) at their disposal --as opposed to just physically dogpiling him and whatnot-- he would have been utterly decimated with very little effort. It is absolutely still a showing that we need to consider when gauging Adam, but I really hope that no one honestly believes his power is actually superior to the combined power(s) of all of the characters he was up against. /shrug

*The inverse ninja law certainly isn't limited to this scene, mind you. It just really stands out to me here due to the stupidity displayed by pretty much every character on the field, EXCEPT Adam.

Originally posted by Galan007
I totally agree that Adam wrecks Bill(along with pretty much any herald you can think of), and I am certainly not trying to take away from his showing in WWIII, but lets be honest: if that team would have actually *used* the power(s) at their disposal --as opposed to just physically dogpiling him and whatnot-- he would have been utterly decimated with very little effort. It is absolutely still a showing that we need to consider when gauging Adam, but I really hope that no one honestly believes his power is actually superior to the combined power(s) of all of the characters he was up against. /shrug

*The inverse ninja law certainly isn't limited to this scene, mind you. It just really stands out to me here due to the stupidity displayed by pretty much every character on the field, EXCEPT Adam.

Either way, the bottom line is:

Originally posted by Galan007
Adam wrecks Bill(along with pretty much any herald you can think of)

Adam would have wrecked Superman, too.

In his own title, shortly before WW III the point was made that a fighting mad Superman couldn't even move Adam out of the center of his city.

Supes certainly got his licks in, but didn't look nearly as impressive as you'd expect against someone who WAS.NOT.FIGHTING.BACK.

Originally posted by Blue Area Vet
Lol, you can argue that all you want, but the problem is you'd be eternally wrong. Powergirl on the level of Bill? 😂 That's the problem with you D.C. boys, you are delusional when it comes to power levels.

PG is close to Wonder Woman's level, at best.

And the problem here in this thread, is while the combined heroes didn't use their powers effectively, Beta Ray Bill HAS in his own series.

As tough as Adam is, how would he stack up against a full on blitz from Stormbreaker, slamming into his back, followed by a big long energy blast, followed by being slammed into the moon? And then hit with enough force to BREAK the moon?

Because this all happened in Stormbreaker. Frankly, at the time Bill outshown Thor by a LOT, and it wasn't until the God Butcher arc that the balance shifted back in the Odinsons favor (IMO).

like I said, we're not going to see eye to eye on this one i'm afraid. no disrespect, I just think this was a case of spotlight power.

galan is right--had the group fought effectively, adam would have been crushed by that group. we've seen b&t thor beating the watch+ss+strange (or was strange after the gem...?) we've seen mindless hulk beating all the avengers, we've seen hal go crazy and slaughter hosts of gl's and seen support he could single-handedly beat the league. in exiles ss went crazy and couldn't be stopped. king hyperion is another alternate example. I guess I lump ww3 adam in with all that--great showings against large collections of characters that seem really impressive but those they fight just never seem to fight all that well, to say the least.

but then you go ahead and say you don't think, given all this, that superman would be counted among those he'd have wrecked? I 100% agree with you, btw: superman would most certainly NOT have been wrecked. or he would have gotten po'd and stepped up and stopped adam. or marvel would have. and if I believe THEY would have/could have, I believe this fight would be close, as would fights between this adam and any legit high herald. /shrug

again, all my opinion, but it's weird we can agree on one piece, and be so disparate in our other beliefs.

galan, jun, you think adam would have destroyed superman had he shown up and gone 1on1? the way adam's being talked about, it seems almost certain that to accept this showing at face value would imply a belief that he would take down superman, no?

Originally posted by cdtm
PG is close to Wonder Woman's level, at best.

Physically, Power Girl is at least as fast and strong as Wonder Woman.

Diana: "She's at least as fast and as strong as I am

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2337226-wonder_woman_041_12.jpg

Originally posted by cdtm
As tough as Adam is, how would he stack up against a full on blitz from Stormbreaker, slamming into his back, followed by a big long energy blast, followed by being slammed into the moon? And then hit with enough force to BREAK the moon?

Because this all happened in Stormbreaker. Frankly, at the time Bill outshown Thor by a LOT, and it wasn't until the God Butcher arc that the balance shifted back in the Odinsons favor (IMO).

Space cheese is irrelevant to fights. Breaking moons is as relevant to high-heralds as bullet timing is to street levelers - i.e. not at all. Relative fight performances are what matters most.

Also a word of advice - never go using space cheese against DC characters, where rookie green lanterns survive black holes. This won't go well for you.

Originally posted by leonidas
like I said, we're not going to see eye to eye on this one i'm afraid. no disrespect

No prob, we have different criteria on which we judged the fight.

Given that there were dozens of members attacking him, I'm not much into choreography as I am in intent of the writer, which is consistent with his history of taking it to high powered teams. You're on the other side of the table.

Originally posted by leonidas
galan is right--had the group fought effectively, adam would have been crushed by that group. we've seen b&t thor beating the watch+ss+strange (or was strange after the gem...?) we've seen mindless hulk beating all the avengers, we've seen hal go crazy and slaughter hosts of gl's and seen support he could single-handedly beat the league. in exiles ss went crazy and couldn't be stopped. king hyperion is another alternate example. I guess I lump ww3 adam in with all that--great showings against large collections of characters that seem really impressive but those they fight just never seem to fight all that well, to say the least.

but then you go ahead and say you don't think, given all this, that superman would be counted among those he'd have wrecked? I 100% agree with you, btw: superman would most certainly NOT have been wrecked. or he would have gotten po'd and stepped up and stopped adam. or marvel would have. and if I believe THEY would have/could have, I believe this fight would be close, as would fights between this adam and any legit high herald. /shrug

again, all my opinion, but it's weird we can agree on one piece, and be so disparate in our other beliefs.

The had they fought to the best of their abilities can apply to any fight, even individual fights, and it would still be accurate, but that doesn't mean we ignore what's on page because it's not the way we would have written it. Superman wouldn't get beaten because he has similar showings to Adam - it's as simple as that. Bill doesn't.

The best part is that Black Adam doesn't even need the WW3 showing to prove he wins [eventough the thread directly refers to that version of him]. He has other showings similar to that in his 'normal' state of mind that serve the same purpose, and they're not as riddled in 'the other characters didn't use their power'.

Anyway, we're beating a dead horse and going into circles. I disagree with your examples, but it would only deviate the discussion to how there's context to Hal, how alternate realities have different powerlevels so it's irrelevant etc. And it wouldn't really advance this part of the discussion.

Couldn't disagree with Philo's take on feats more.

Whether catching a bullet, or pressing the weight of the Earth for five days straight, these "cheese" feats most definately do and "should" matter, because they're one of the few measurable things we have.

I don't know of a single forum that doesn't weigh "cheese" when debating. That's kind of the only thing that keeps this from becoming a popularity contest where Batman and Wolverine beat everyone because they're more popular then 99% of all comics characters combined (And I love me a good Batkick joke, but Batman should NEVER block a punch from a guy who can total a skyscraper. Which he has.)

Power Girl has also after coming out of a mind control daze got essentially sucker punched by a pissed off Wonder Woman then caught Diana's punch (while she was still on the ground IIRC). Among a few other things. Wonder Woman's skill can close the gap, but physically she's inferior going by comparosons. Despite all the hype Pre-FLASHPOINT Wonder Woman got as "strongest female in DC" she's behind the Kyrptonian ladies.

Originally posted by leonidas
galan, jun, you think adam would have destroyed superman had he shown up and gone 1on1? the way adam's being talked about, it seems almost certain that to accept this showing at face value would imply a belief that he would take down superman, no?

As I've said many, many times over the years: when he wants/needs to be, Superman > ALL. If nothing else, he has certainly proven that much over the years. 👆

Originally posted by Galan007
When the poster child of DC shows up, he is going to put ANY character in the corner -- especially if he is the last/only person left to stop said threat(s)... Cosmological status be damned.

As I've said this many, many times over the years: when he wants/needs to be, Superman > ALL. If nothing else, he has certainly proven that much over the years. 👆

Well, yeah. He's pretty much the godfather of modern comics (The Greatest Fan Film Ever Made is all about that.)

I guess you could say Superman "should" lose like the rest. Even if DC wouldn't let it happen.

And, on a board debate, he "should" lose like the rest, as an official no limits falicy by DC doesn't make for very exciting debating on the boards. (Plus rules trying to circumvent that and such..)

But hey, please come to Anime vs and the Superman vs Goku thread if you want to seriously argue the no limits clause. (Not that I think you "are", but in that case I'd be willing to make an exception..)

Originally posted by cdtm
Adam would have wrecked Superman, too.

In his own title, shortly before WW III the point was made that a fighting mad Superman couldn't even move Adam out of the center of his city.

Supes certainly got his licks in, but didn't look nearly as impressive as you'd expect against someone who WAS.NOT.FIGHTING.BACK.

Exactly. Adam schooled him one on one without even going all out. Adam would beat Superman minus the amp from WW3. With it he'd break Superman.