Originally posted by Stigma
Emperordmb already brought up a good point ealier in this debate imho.Also, if children cannot vote due to our law regulations, why should they "vote" for their transition before the age the law recognizes them as adults?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well I believe in universal and free healthcare so ideally, no. And currently in our country, you can get it on the NHS.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You should use medical interventions when referring to cross hormone therapy or sex reassignment surgeries, because transitioning does not necessarily require medical interventions.Some LGBT people may not know the precise terminology, or if they do, they may not feel compelled to correct someone if they understand his intent, even if he does not necessarily use the precise terms.
That is not a phrase I've read on the internet or heard from my Transgender friends. But I'll try to start using it.
Thanks.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
With the exception of bariatric surgery and live donor organ transplantation, sex reassignment surgery is the only category of surgeries for which a mental health assessment is required in the United States.It is important to note that SRS is not a treatment for being transgender. Some transgender people have no desire to change their sex. Rather, it is a treatment for gender dysphoria, which is the psychological distress of one being unable to reconcile the disparity between his gender and sex.
Imagine identifying as a man, and looking in the mirror every day, and seeing a woman. Some people can accept that, and others simply cannot handle it. Sexual reassignment surgery is for the latter. Despite the name, the goal is not to make someone a member of a different sex; that is impossible. The goal is to cosmetically alter the appearance of that person in such a way as to minimize the psychological distress he is experiencing.
The reason some people regret SRS is the same reason some people regret any cosmetic surgery: they had unrealistic expectations. They think surgery will solve all their problems, and instead, they simply exchange one set of problems for another.
Another reason some people regret SRS is because no amount of surgery will help them. For example, people with body dysmorphia have a distorted self-image. Their perception of their appearance does not necessarily align with their actual appearance. So even if their actual flaws are surgically corrected, their perception of their appearance may not change. This often leads to disappointment, regret, and seeking additional surgeries. But no amount of surgery will help them, because the problem is with their brain, not with their body.
Amazing post. This is the kind of stuff I wanted to be discussed. And then apply these issues to children vs. adults.
I have not read one single argument FOR children transitioning with medical intervention.
Originally posted by EmperordmbUhuh, my point is that a lot of these, if not all of these rules, are arbitrary. There is no scientifically definable point at which an individual develops the sexual, mental, or physical maturity to do any of these things, and in lot of cases they are ignored without harm done (i.e. drinking, sex) or have strong arguments for being revised (i.e voting), and all of them vary from country to country. Given that I simply do not find them compelling as a standard for much of anything.
Exactly, there's much less self-impacting/permanent decisions people aren't allowed to make until a later age like voting, sex, and drinking, so it's weird to me that people who aren't legally allowed to vote, ****, and drink can be legally be allowed to alter their bodies permanently and have their genitals mutilated by a doctor. And no offense to Beni here, but on that same token letting a pre-pubescent child make this decision really doesn't make sense to me given all that.
In short if you're going to make a decision based on when a person can or cannot have gender reassignment surgery, it should be based on its own merits, not off of preexisting precedents that have only arbitrary basis.
I believe in that to an extent, but at the same time, I really don't see a valid argument for why taxpayer funded healthcare should cover cosmetic surgery. I'm sure nobody would want their money going towards an ugly person's plastic surgery, so why should anyone's money go towards this? Surgery in the case of a medical emergency is one thing, but in the case of cosmetics I don't believe it should be funded by the taxpayers.In the UK the NHS cover cosmetic surgery in a lot of cases:
All of which I find sense making. Personally I'd advocate free access to any surgical procedure that can be considered medically necessary (as well as, like in some the above cases, to restore their normal appearance), whether that be to treat their physical or mental health. In which case someone being depressed because their are ugly certainly doesn't qualify, in most cases its not going to be a serious issue and if it became one (i.e if they became severely depressed or suicidal), could be treated with psychiatric help, something I certainly wouldn't refuse them on the NHS on the basis that it was a "cosmetic issue".
Gender dysphoria is a far more severe and profound problem, and in many cases, psychiatric treatment and/or drug related treatment isn't going to fix it. There is also the matter of their legal rights, as I believe in some countries GRS is necessary to be legally identified as your chosen gender.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I have not read one single argument FOR children transitioning with medical intervention.
That is because it is not really done. The recommended standard of care for children is to begin hormone inhibitors to delay puberty until the child is a teenager, at which time, he can decide whether to stop taking hormone inhibitors and develop normally, or begin taking cross hormone therapy and develop as the opposite sex. Surgery is not performed on minors.
Originally posted by Kurk
Children can not make rational decisions period. Hell, the prefrontal cortex which is responsible for personality development and long-term decision making doesn't mature until your twenties on average.
This is another one of those myths. The brain keeps changing throughout your life.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
That is because it is not really done. The recommended standard of care for children is to begin hormone inhibitors to delay puberty until the child is a teenager, at which time, he can decide whether to stop taking hormone inhibitors and develop normally, or begin taking cross hormone therapy and develop as the opposite sex. Surgery is not performed on minors.
Some in the Transgender community demand that children be allowed to transition: SRS and HRT. Not just delay puberty.
That is where this thread came from. And I can see both sides.
I think delaying puberty is a nice compromise. And I think and can accept that as the solution.
I'll tell you...every single Transgender person that I personally know has told me that they always felt that they were in the wrong body. And they knew it from the time they were very small children. For me, that is a very compelling argument. And it is difficult for me to demand that they wait for years when they have made a very mature and informed decision at, say....11 or 12. We tell them, "no, you're not smart enough or mature enough to know you are in the wrong body. Wait until you're 18."
What if I have to say that to one of my future children, one day? I do not know if it is the right thing to say or do. But I think it is the safest path to take and is the only reasonable compromise I can accept.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I'll tell you...every single Transgender person that I personally know has told me that they always felt that they were in the wrong body. And they knew it from the time they were very small children. For me, that is a very compelling argument. And it is difficult for me to demand that they wait for years when they have made a very mature and informed decision at, say....11 or 12. We tell them, "no, you're not smart enough or mature enough to know you are in the wrong body. Wait until you're 18."
There is a danger in this attitude. Every transgender you know has told you they felt they were always in the wrong body. I assume you don't know some startling amount of transgender people, right?
I just mean using personal anecdotes to make assumptions isn't necessarily always the right way to be. I only point this out because trans people have a high suicide rate that more or less stays the same even in the post op trans people.
For instance, if you go back and look at that Guardian article it has hundreds of comments on it, I read only a few pages and I saw various commenters talking about trans people they had known who also regretted it.
I remember the recent story of who I think was a high school trans student who was a big spokesperson for the community and they recently killed themselves.
It just makes you wonder..do we need way way more research done before we start taking the measures we are taking?
Originally posted by Surtur
There is a danger in this attitude. Every transgender you know has told you they felt they were always in the wrong body. I assume you don't know some startling amount of transgender people, right?
Are you referring to the entirety of the Transgender people on the planet? Yes, then I don't know very many at all because the entire population is huge. As far as how many I know compared to most people? It is ridiculous, of course. No we can have dick measuring contests but I am quite positive no one will believe that your personal interactions with the Trans community is anything but null.
So let's skip the bullshit dick wagging contest that you like to have with people like Robtard and skip to the end of this part of the discussion: I don't give a shit about your internet warrior experience and your experiences reading anti-Trans materials and comments. It's bullshit.
Actually get out into the world and talk to real trans people. Go to a gay club, if you have to. Don't be hater.
Originally posted by Surtur
I just mean using personal anecdotes to make assumptions isn't necessarily always the right way to be.
As if I'll fall for your bullshit "it's just anecdotes and you know nothing" internet argument. Sorry, this is real life. You can't pretend that it is dismiss-able as "just an anecdote" but it's just a bullshit way for you to pretend my points are invalid because it scares you to think that people you don't like, thousands of them, maybe millions of them, felt like they were born the wrong sex.
What, you thought I'd be nice just because we're bros? 🙂 No way! I'd expect you to call me out on my bullshit when it comes to economics because I have some shitty ideas that need to be improved. So why would I be nice about your barely hidden hatred for the Trans community?
Originally posted by Surtur
I only point this out because trans people have a high suicide rate that more or less stays the same even in the post op trans people.
In the study "oh so often" used by conservatives to scream, "OHHHH!! YOU SEE!! THESE PEOPLE ARE F*CKED UP AND ARE JUST CRAZY! SEE, NOT THE WAY GOD INTENDED!", there was a caveat that the researchers put into it that is extremely important.
It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexual persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit.
And from the actual author/lead on the study:
Dhejne: People who misuse the study always omit the fact that the study clearly states that it is not an evaluation of gender dysphoria treatment. If we look at the literature, we find that several recent studies conclude that WPATH Standards of Care compliant treatment decrease gender dysphoria and improves mental health.
Emphasis mine.
For someone shitting themselves over "anecdotes", you do seem to cling onto wrong and harmful views on "science." If you hated what you viewed as "anecdotes" so much, then why do you have such wrong and even harmful ideas about research that is so often misrepresented by anti-Trans people?
But what about more current research?
Well, I just so happen to have some. It just so happens that transitioning with Medical Intervention reduces depression (and suicides by a similar marker) by 90%:
At entry into the study (baseline), the most common comorbidity in both groups was depression, with a 24.9% incidence in MTF subjects and 13.6% in FTM, according to Dr. Asscheman. He noted, however, that the frequency of depression varied greatly among the study centers....after treatment, 26 (2.4%) of the MTF subjects and 7 (1.4%) of the FTM subjects still reported depression, leading Dr. Asscheman to tell the large audience, "Sex-reassignment treatment does not cure depression."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/827713
We are improving our medical science and our understanding. In just a few short years, better research and better data is available. You need to update your hate and arguments against the transgender community.
Originally posted by Surtur
For instance, if you go back and look at that Guardian article it has hundreds of comments on it, I read only a few pages and I saw various commenters talking about trans people they had known who also regretted it.
And not a single Trans person I know said they regretted it and many said they wish that society had been mature enough so that they could go through the transition even faster in one form or another. I honestly believe almost every single one of those commenters are liars who have clear agendas to undermine the Trans community because of their insecurities against people who they think are weird. They are the same as the white people who lie on the internet and say, "I am not racist, I have black friends!" They may even be some of the same people, too! Gaspity! haha
Originally posted by Surtur
I remember the recent story of who I think was a high school trans student who was a big spokesperson for the community and they recently killed themselves.
And they killed themselves only because they were trans, right? dur
For someone who hates supposed anecdotes so much, you seem to be using a single personal example to make a point.
Originally posted by Surtur
It just makes you wonder..do we need way way more research done before we start taking the measures we are taking?
What measures? You need to be more specific. If you respond to me, you know I want specifics and not vague ideas and commentary.
Originally posted by Kurk
hormonal changes, yes, but it doesn't keep developing
No, actual changes in how information is processed. And this is observable in brain scans. Neuroscientists can told how old a brain is, for the most part, because it does keep changing. Another idea is that our brains "peak" around our 50s. Maximized intelligence, knowledge, experience, and creativity while still possessing enough youthfulness if you keep exercising your brain.
And you're right...I should just drop it. The "maturity" idea does center around the pre-frontal cortex and it specifically has to deal with decision making which is what I prefer be stated.
Anyway, sorry about that...just one of those things that I hear people say a lot that is not necessarily accurate.
Originally posted by Flyattractor
[b]Oh for the good old days when Adult Therapy was a Kick to the Ass and you got told to Grow the Fudge Up. But now we have millennials and SAFE PLACES!!!!!Embrace your inner cry baby!!!!!!!!! WWWWWWWAAAAAAAAH!HH!!
#tantrumed.
[/B]
Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Yeah, it did wonders for you.
haermm
Originally posted by dadudemon
Are you referring to the entirety of the Transgender people on the planet? Yes, then I don't know very many at all because the entire population is huge. As far as how many I know compared to most people? It is ridiculous, of course. No we can have dick measuring contests but I am quite positive no one will believe that your personal interactions with the Trans community is anything but null.
It doesn't even have to be the entire planet, I'm just talking about even more than a handful. There is no dick measuring.
So let's skip the bullshit dick wagging contest that you like to have with people like Robtard and skip to the end of this part of the discussion: I don't give a shit about your internet warrior experience and your experiences reading anti-Trans materials and comments. It's bullshit.Actually get out into the world and talk to real trans people. Go to a gay club, if you have to. Don't be hater.
You seem to think I was acting like I personally know a crapload of trans people. I'm simply pointing out that you could legitimately say you have met trans who "always knew". Other people have personal experiences with people who have regretted. I don't think you'd say yours outweigh those or vice versa, is my point.
As if I'll fall for your bullshit "it's just anecdotes and you know nothing" internet argument. Sorry, this is real life. You can't pretend that it is dismiss-able as "just an anecdote" but it's just a bullshit way for you to pretend my points are invalid because it scares you to think that people you don't like, thousands of them, maybe millions of them, felt like they were born the wrong sex.What, you thought I'd be nice just because we're bros? 🙂 No way! I'd expect you to call me out on my bullshit when it comes to economics because I have some shitty ideas that need to be improved. So why would I be nice about your barely hidden hatred for the Trans community?
You seem to have misunderstood. I never said you know nothing. Merely I was making comments about making judgements about the trans community based on mere personal experience with some of them.
I hate trans people because..why? I Never said I do. I talked about the suicide rate, I talked about your own personal experiences and pointed out how the experiences of others could lead one to perhaps reach a different conclusion. It doesn't mean you know nothing about trans genders in general.
In the study "oh so often" used by conservatives to scream, "OHHHH!! YOU SEE!! THESE PEOPLE ARE F*CKED UP AND ARE JUST CRAZY! SEE, NOT THE WAY GOD INTENDED!", there was a caveat that the researchers put into it that is extremely important.And from the actual author/lead on the study:
Emphasis mine.
But this is why I have said we need more research. What we know is there is a high suicide rate among them. What we know is it doesn't change much. These are facts. Have people who do truly hate these people misinterpreted them? Yes.
For someone shitting themselves over "anecdotes", you do seem to cling onto wrong and harmful views on "science." If you hated what you viewed as "anecdotes" so much, then why do you have such wrong and even harmful ideas about research that is so often misrepresented by anti-Trans people?
Nobody shit themselves of an anecdote, I did that because I pointed out personal anecdotes don't always give accurate assessments of situations?
Also, what research is mis represented? Do Trans people have high rates of suicide? Yes. Does that not change much even after the operation? Yes. This is what I pointed out to you. I never said it means sex re-assignment makes you more suicidal.
But what about more current research?Well, I just so happen to have some. It just so happens that transitioning with Medical Intervention reduces depression (and suicides by a similar marker) by 90%:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/827713
We are improving our medical science and our understanding. In just a few short years, better research and better data is available. You need to update your hate and arguments against the transgender community.
You need to stop thinking pointing out the mental health of some of these people is akin to hate. And also preferably don't transfer the way others use studies to me. I've mentioned it before, and it doesn't show it makes things worse to get the surgery. If it made things worse the suicide rate would be a lot higher post op than pre.
And not a single Trans person I know said they regretted it and many said they wish that society had been mature enough so that they could go through the transition even faster in one form or another. I honestly believe almost every single one of those commenters are liars who have clear agendas to undermine the Trans community because of their insecurities against people who they think are weird. They are the same as the white people who lie on the internet and say, "I am not racist, I have black friends!" They may even be some of the same people, too! Gaspity! haha
Dude, here is where you lose me. Before I could see if you were passionate about issues and I bring up something that you reminds you an argument people tend to make about this and how surgery can make things worse, etc. I can get it. But I don't get that "all these people must be liars" thing. Because it doesn't jive with your personal experiences? Really?
The "I'm not racist I have black friends" is different. It's usually tossed out amid accusations of being racist. These are people commenting on an article about a person who regretted this and sharing similar anecdotes about trans people they have known. You act like someone accused them of hating trans people and they responded "oh no I have a trans friend and she regrets it!".
What measures? You need to be more specific. If you respond to me, you know I want specifics and not vague ideas and commentary.
First I need to say the trans person who killed themselves, that was my entire point about anecdotes. That we can reach wildly different conclusions based on whose we use.
As for specifics, I don't know I'm not a doctor. But I guess all we can do for now is..study the effects of what we're doing. I just hope in a few decades we do not look back and realize we went about this the wrong way.