Should we let children transition? A transgender thread.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Some in the Transgender community demand that children be allowed to transition: SRS and HRT. Not just delay puberty.

I think this is why:

Originally posted by dadudemon
. . . not a single Trans person I know said they regretted it and many said they wish that society had been mature enough so that they could go through the transition even faster in one form or another.

Most who transition later in life regret not having done it sooner.

My concern is in the rush to affirm transgender children, some gender non-conforming children may be incorrectly labeled as trans, and put on a track of irreversible medical interventions that they will regret later. In other words, people should not be so quick to right the wheel, that they over-correct, and create the same problem for non-trans kids that they are trying to prevent for trans kids. That is why I agree with this:

Originally posted by dadudemon
I think delaying puberty is a nice compromise. And I think and can accept that as the solution.

Originally posted by Surtur
I only point this out because trans people have a high suicide rate that more or less stays the same even in the post op trans people.

LGBT people face a lot of oppression, discrimination, persecution, and violence in mainstream society.

If you are black, you can find momentary reprieve in your home with your family.

If you are Muslim, you can find momentary reprieve in your place of worship with your faith community.

But if you are LGBT, there is no reprieve for you almost anywhere.

You can be legally discriminated against in employment and housing, and it is not a hate crime to target you for violence because you are LGBT.

You are not welcome in many places of worship, and it is legal to turn you away from a business, or to refuse to serve you.

Everyone thinks they are entitled to an opinion about you, and to have a say in what civil rights you have.

And many LGBT people are disowned by their own families.

Trans people are not killing themselves because they are trans, they are killing themselves because they live in a society in which they are constantly mistreated.

Originally posted by snowdragon
Are you saying kids should be able to make this choice? I think you might be the most informed of us in this discussion.

I think that if a child consistently and persistently insists that he is a gender that does not correspond to his sex, that there is no harm in delaying puberty until which time the child is older, and can make a more articulate assertion.

In the intervening time, treating the child as intersex may be a better approach. Referring to the child by a gender neutral name and plural pronouns, dressing and styling the child in a gender neutral way, etc. and let things develop in one direction or the other with no parental influence.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
LGBT people face a lot of oppression, discrimination, persecution, and violence in mainstream society.

If you are black, you can find momentary reprieve in your home with your family.

If you are Muslim, you can find momentary reprieve in your place of worship with your faith community.

But if you are LGBT, there is no reprieve for you almost anywhere.

You can be legally discriminated against in employment and housing, and it is not a hate crime to target you for violence because you are LGBT.

You are not welcome in many places of worship, and it is legal to turn you away from a business, or to refuse to serve you.

Everyone thinks they are entitled to an opinion about you, and to have a say in what civil rights you have.

And many LGBT people are disowned by their own families.

Trans people are not killing themselves because they are trans, they are killing themselves because they live in a society in which they are constantly mistreated.

👆

So it is societies fault? Okay. What is the suicide rate of trans people compared to others in the LGBT community?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Trans people are not killing themselves because they are trans, they are killing themselves because they live in a society in which they are constantly mistreated.

IIRC the suicide rates for slaves in America wasn't that high, and the only comparable suicide rates to the transgender suicide rate are those of Jews living in Nazi Germany iirc.

I don't think society treats transgendered people as bad as slaves who weren't even considered people and were regularly physically abused, or as badly as Nazis treated Jewish people.

There is no enslavement or genocide of transgendered people. Yes they face discrimination, but it's not unreasonable to look into other factors that may be contributing to such a high suicide rate when the only comparable suicide rate is from people undergoing a literal genocide.

Trans people are dehumanized. I know a guy who loved next to a transgender woman who asked to use his phone. Didn't refer to her as he or she but rather "it". He talked about getting disinfecting wipes for his phone afterward.

Yes of course society factors into it, but to suggest the suicide rate is solely due to society's treatment of them when African American slaves didn't have as high a suicide rate and the only comparable suicide rate is from a group of people literally undergoing genocide seems like too premature a conclusion to make when trying to deal with an issue this serious. If it turns out the issue is more multifaceted than just societal mistreatment, ignoring the possibility that it could be due to more than just societal mistreatment is a disservice to the transgendered community.

Originally posted by Surtur
So it is societies fault? Okay. What is the suicide rate of trans people compared to others in the LGBT community?

Approximately 5% of straight youth have attempted suicide; compared to 20% of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth; and 40% of transgender youth.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yes of course society factors into it, but to suggest the suicide rate is [b]solely due to society's treatment of them when African American slaves didn't have as high a suicide rate and the only comparable suicide rate is from a group of people literally undergoing genocide seems like too premature a conclusion to make when trying to deal with an issue this serious. If it turns out the issue is more multifaceted than just societal mistreatment, ignoring the possibility that it could be due to more than just societal mistreatment is a disservice to the transgendered community. [/B]

Plus he seems to have concluded transgender people in general are dehumanized because he totally knows a guy who was a dick to them.

We don't even allow people to have augmentation surgeries that are fully reversible at such a young age, so to suggest something as traumatic and permanent as SRS before puberty is ludicrous, as talking of doing so without proper counseling regardless of the age.

No. Absolutely not. Mainly because I don't trust doctors enough to keep their personal politics/career aspirations out of it.

Read up on David Reimer, a boy who suffered a surgical mishap at birth and got gender reassigned. The son of a ***** mental health professional maintained the narrative that everything went smoothly, and covered up problems that occured. Eventually, Reimer opted for another sex change operation.. And eventually killed himself.

I DO.NOT trust many of these mental health professionals. Looo into, say, Freud, and there's so many sketchy things that pop up, like having a tight knit circle of like minded people who squashed any and all dissent, hiding notes that went against his theories, ect..

Or, look at the Milgram experiment. He claimed he proved people unquestionly bow to authority figures, and forgot to mention many of the subject acted like they knew something was fishy about the whole setup.. As in, they realized no one was on the other end of the electric shock.

If a full grown adult wants to take the chance and put themselves in their hands, go for it. But keep kids as far away from social experiments as possible..

And if anyones using children just to push an agenda on either side of the debate, they should be ashamed.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH AUSTRALIA??!?!!!?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/32501729/child-4-in-sex-change-bid-as-government-reveals-hundreds-of-kids-seeking-gender-reassignment/#page1

http://www.inquisitr.com/3480381/4-year-old-approved-for-sex-change-gender-reassignment-operation-to-be-conducted-in-australia/

http://www.naturalnews.com/055231_sex_change_surgery_children_child_abuse.html

Originally posted by cdtm
No. Absolutely not. Mainly because I don't trust doctors enough to keep their personal politics/career aspirations out of it.

Read up on David Reimer, a boy who suffered a surgical mishap at birth and got gender reassigned. The son of a ***** mental health professional maintained the narrative that everything went smoothly, and covered up problems that occured. Eventually, Reimer opted for another sex change operation.. And eventually killed himself.

I DO.NOT trust many of these mental health professionals. Looo into, say, Freud, and there's so many sketchy things that pop up, like having a tight knit circle of like minded people who squashed any and all dissent, hiding notes that went against his theories, ect..

Or, look at the Milgram experiment. He claimed he proved people unquestionly bow to authority figures, and forgot to mention many of the subject acted like they knew something was fishy about the whole setup.. As in, they realized no one was on the other end of the electric shock.

If a full grown adult wants to take the chance and put themselves in their hands, go for it. But keep kids as far away from social experiments as possible..

And if anyones using children just to push an agenda on either side of the debate, they should be ashamed.

David Reimer is proof that gender identity is inherent.

His penis was destroyed during circumcision, so he was given sexual reassignment surgery as an infant, and renamed Brenda.

He was raised and socialized as a girl, but was depressed and suicidal, because he did not accept that identity.

When he discovered that he was born male, he transitioned back to his birth sex, and changed his name to David.

He would later commit suicide, but it was not because of his SRS.

He, understandably, struggled with his relationship with his parents; he lost his job; his twin brother committed suicide; and his wife divorced him.

He had just experienced more hardships than he could handle.

You wouldn't know it from John Money that he rejected his gender. He pretended the reassignment was a complete success.

One case doesn't really prove whether gender identity is inherent or not. But we certaintly should err on the side of caution when it comes to very young children and drastic, life altering surgery.

Originally posted by cdtm
WHAT IS WRONG WITH AUSTRALIA??!?!!!?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/32501729/child-4-in-sex-change-bid-as-government-reveals-hundreds-of-kids-seeking-gender-reassignment/#page1

http://www.inquisitr.com/3480381/4-year-old-approved-for-sex-change-gender-reassignment-operation-to-be-conducted-in-australia/

http://www.naturalnews.com/055231_sex_change_surgery_children_child_abuse.html

That is ****ed up.

Originally posted by Surtur
It doesn't even have to be the entire planet, I'm just talking about even more than a handful. There is no dick measuring.

You seem to think I was acting like I personally know a crapload of trans people. I'm simply pointing out that you could legitimately say you have met trans who "always knew". Other people have personal experiences with people who have regretted. I don't think you'd say yours outweigh those or vice versa, is my point.

You seem to have misunderstood. I never said you know nothing. Merely I was making comments about making judgements about the trans community based on mere personal experience with some of them.

I hate trans people because..why? I Never said I do. I talked about the suicide rate, I talked about your own personal experiences and pointed out how the experiences of others could lead one to perhaps reach a different conclusion. It doesn't mean you know nothing about trans genders in general.

But this is why I have said we need more research. What we know is there is a high suicide rate among them. What we know is it doesn't change much. These are facts. Have people who do truly hate these people misinterpreted them? Yes.

Nobody shit themselves of an anecdote, I did that because I pointed out personal anecdotes don't always give accurate assessments of situations?

Also, what research is mis represented? Do Trans people have high rates of suicide? Yes. Does that not change much even after the operation? Yes. This is what I pointed out to you. I never said it means sex re-assignment makes you more suicidal.

You need to stop thinking pointing out the mental health of some of these people is akin to hate. And also preferably don't transfer the way others use studies to me. I've mentioned it before, and it doesn't show it makes things worse to get the surgery. If it made things worse the suicide rate would be a lot higher post op than pre.

Dude, here is where you lose me. Before I could see if you were passionate about issues and I bring up something that you reminds you an argument people tend to make about this and how surgery can make things worse, etc. I can get it. But I don't get that "all these people must be liars" thing. Because it doesn't jive with your personal experiences? Really?

The "I'm not racist I have black friends" is different. It's usually tossed out amid accusations of being racist. These are people commenting on an article about a person who regretted this and sharing similar anecdotes about trans people they have known. You act like someone accused them of hating trans people and they responded "oh no I have a trans friend and she regrets it!".

First I need to say the trans person who killed themselves, that was my entire point about anecdotes. That we can reach wildly different conclusions based on whose we use.

As for specifics, I don't know I'm not a doctor. But I guess all we can do for now is..study the effects of what we're doing. I just hope in a few decades we do not look back and realize we went about this the wrong way.

I have no energy left to continue. 👆

I got the impression, from your posting history, that you're slightly to moderately anti-Trans (transgender/transsexual). And I have zero tolerance for that kind of intolerance which makes me a hypocrite?

No? Just don't transfer the arguments others have used onto me. Pointing out the high suicide rate shouldn't be taboo. Nobody said it means you have a higher chance of suicide once you get your surgery.

Cuz some other douche tried to use the study to suggest they get even more suicidal after transitioning is irrelevant to me and what I am saying, when in general the discussion was about happiness vs unhappiness, about people who say they totally knew this was the bee's knee's and was what they needed since they were young to people who did not.

Originally posted by Surtur
No? Just don't transfer the arguments others have used onto me. Pointing out the high suicide rate shouldn't be taboo. Nobody said it means you have a higher chance of suicide once you get your surgery.

Cuz some other douche tried to use the study to suggest they get even more suicidal after transitioning is irrelevant to me and what I am saying, when in general the discussion was about happiness vs unhappiness, about people who say they totally knew this was the bee's knee's and was what they needed since they were young to people who did not.

Seems post-op, they greatly improve (90% lower depression rate, which is a huge difference), based on the recent research I posted. That's wonderful news. And based off of another study, we are improving these numbers over time as we better understand proper medical and psychological treatment. Additionally, as tolerance and acceptance increase, I think negative outcomes and experiences will continue to improve for our Trans community.

So, no, the research you referenced earlier was not an accurate portrayal of the situation. As I pointed out, it was a misrepresentation of that 2011 study that is often touted by anti-Trans people. It is a common argument and it usually indicates the type of person you are dealing with (their perspective) when these discussions come up.

Are you anti-Trans? I can help you answer that question: do you think someone who is transgender is severely mentally ill and that people who transition are wrong to go against their biological sex?

Is it WRONG to do it? No. Do I believe they are all mentally ill? No. Do I believe mental illness can indeed lead to someone who feels they are female even though they are male? Yes.

If I was anti trans, I would say they don't even have a right to be trans.

Mostly I just don't want tax payer money spent on sex re-assignment though(for now mostly it is not). If they gotta be trans, be trans via their own dollaz.