Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes. Most of the arguement at this point is whether or not it's horribly misleading to say that the formation of the black hole that resulted from Surfer's energy discharge was a side effect of said blast. Yes, that's seriously what Phil and abhi are freaking out about. So does such a statement qualify as lying/trolling by your definition?
You don't think there's an argument there?
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah if anything, Morg putting out energy of his own actually increases the impressiveness of the feat because it means that Surfer put out enough power to overwelm Morg's energy with enough left over to KO him.
Anyhow nice to see u around Darth..
I can't see the Surfer beating Superman in a brawl, but then again who ever said that it had to devolve into a brawl? The Surfer literally has the power to remove Superman's power's altogether by messing with his DNA. He has altered the Hulk in the past, and has altered Lunatik as well. Nothing would stop him from altering Superman unless he decided against it.
Originally posted by -Pr-
You don't think there's an argument there?
Writers often feel free to get fancy and 'realistic' when characters are beating on someone they would destroy based on raw power alone.
But how often does a Surfer get insta-wins off other elite top tiers using his powers exotically? That's rare, because comics be comics.
If we want to try to argue this realistically, then it depends how realistic you wanna get. But we can't be too realistic as we don't understand the limits of the heroes' powers with anything like scientific detail.
That said, if being as realistic as we can, then it's probably possible to infer super speed reactions to Surfer. So all he has to do is stop time the moment the fight starts to beat the speed blitz. Or do a million other things. Basically comes down to the fight rules and whether you think Surfer can react at all before getting KOed by a super speed blitz. But such a fight is so far removed from a typical comic that it really isn't worth postulating.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Not one that's actually worth having, it's simply nit picking over semantics by my way of thinking. It's not as though there aren't definitions of the phrase "side effect" that don't mention intent as a factor(Smurph posted them), and it's not as if anyone is actually trying to suggest that it was an accident in the first place. They're using "side effect" as a way to denote that the blackhole was created as a result of the magnitude of the blast released by Surfer rather than having it sound as if Surfer simply waved his hand and create one via transmutation the way that Stardust seemed to without having to provide an extended description of the feat. Simply applying a different definition of the phrase(which IS recognized in the links Smurph posted) than Phil or Abhi would prefer to use certainly doesn't seem to qualify as trolling or lying.
And what's the point of this argument? I mean, I've seen the scans, so I'm wondering what the importance of it all is.
Originally posted by -Pr-
And what's the point of this argument? I mean, I've seen the scans, so I'm wondering what the importance of it all is.
The secondary arguement is abhi saying that feats don't matter.
Originally posted by darthgoober
I told you, the primary arguement taking place is seriously whether or not it's inherently wrong to describe the blackhole as a side effect of Surfer's blast. I wasn't trying to make the argument out as trivial, I was being literal. Surt described the blackhole as a side effect of Surfer's blast, detract Jun pointed out that the blackhole was created intentionally, I pointed out that it didn't matter that Surfer wanted to create the blackhole because the feat was creating the thing as a side effect of an energy discharge, then Phil started insisting that it couldn't be described as a side effect because Surfer wanted the blackhole, and that's what the thread has mostly been about for the last 8 pages.The secondary arguement is abhi saying that feats don't matter.
I should rephrase then: Why is this argument happening? What relevance does it have to the thread?
Originally posted by -Pr-
I should rephrase then: Why is this argument happening? What relevance does it have to the thread?
Originally posted by darthgoober
There are no speedlines beyond those generated by Surfer. We do see the travel path of the asteroids and such, but to me it definately looks like they're flying outward. That's why the ones in front of Surfer are motionless, because he's flying in front of the shockwave
Originally posted by Ambient
Morg's own energy is damaging him "what" now??U ask, I give u some answer but of course u have to downplay every single feat examples given ? lol's anyhow! Really am not in any mood for a debate, it's a nice day.. aribarachi! Keep on posting!
Fallen one was defeated the same way by Thanos.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah if anything, Morg putting out energy of his own actually increases the impressiveness of the feat because it means that Surfer put out enough power to overwelm Morg's energy with enough left over to KO him.
Don't talk nonsense.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Because the issue has basically become whether or not people who describe the blackhole as a side effect are lying trolls. Your presence was sought by Phil for you to force anyone from describing the blackhole as such to stop it. Seriously, just look on page 2 6 posts down(I can't quote phil cause of his name) and you'll see.
I was asked to take a look, and I did. My opinion is that it isn't a side-effect in the sense that he intended to do it (and yes, I'm away of the various meanings the term can have).
I'm not making a mod ruling, but I really don't get what the issue is here, or what difference it would make to the fight at hand.
Also it's about Superman's invulnerability. When showings like these exist, you just can't argue for Surfer being able to knock out Superman via raw power.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, it was before Superman reborn. And it was pretty much power of creation since it was established in first arc that powers of magic, color, light is what created the universe.Here it moves the whole solar system along with Earth's timeline.
Superman vs that power.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oTNbkHqGlHU/WPcgdspbsdI/AAAAAAADTnI/SzgY9sGw7LgacTrlKHy4ZoSeLofoljdzQCLcB/s1600/006_004.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-r78qWMQU4lA/WPcgdvC6ClI/AAAAAAADTnM/LEBLwfa95GgZJebmBysdOgK6et-iLVATACLcB/s1600/006_005.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CakK1SNQnRE/WPcge8l1oXI/AAAAAAADTng/9acoWTUreMUjhY78j8ATdJle1BZeCySOACLcB/s1600/006_010.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MYIdqzUIJDk/WPcgfYZLAUI/AAAAAAADTno/S5j6yK7K2LsdqqG0fCccZ-JQVrT22QDXQCLcB/s1600/006_012.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ntckN1g78zk/WPcgfsbh6dI/AAAAAAADTns/ji3yzLoLgX4U4BtNEJtT46tYxa8zFkk2QCLcB/s1600/006_013.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7Ol5zsJLrNc/WPcggLCibrI/AAAAAAADTn0/6qfMEpA2JO0AYxtEfl2hZAQYbvkHxiQcwCLcB/s1600/006_015.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ceU6imwmrps/WPcggmQfiVI/AAAAAAADToA/3n3eEvtZr_8CzpWk0ynWDzTW-ukKTCTZwCLcB/s1600/006_017.jpgDamn, when he is on roll there is nothing like Superman unleashed.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Also it's about Superman's invulnerability. When showings like these exist, you just can't argue for Surfer being able to knock out Superman via raw power.You have to cherry pick Superman's low showings and use high showings from Surfer to even argue in favor of Surfer.
Wait. Are you saying that, on average, Surfer is incapable of knocking Superman out at ALL?
Originally posted by -Pr-
Wait. Are you saying that, on average, Surfer is incapable of knocking Superman out at ALL?
If you don't agree, list all the herald level characters who have knocked out Superman without some sort of cop out or context. You will have to go to Byrne era to even find such examples.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes. Herald level characters are incapable of knocking out Superman in a straight up fight via raw power unless it's some sort of ultimate attack like godblast or likeness.If you don't agree, list all the herald level characters who have knocked out Superman without some sort of cop out or context. You will have to go to Byrne era to even find such examples.
It's comics. There's almost always context.
But to say that NO herald AT ALL could knock out Superman? Wait, which version are we talking about?
I'll even help you with the herald and trans tier list and list out the characters who have knocked out Superman via raw power only. I listed the characters who have fought Superman.
Amazon (Once with the power of over 35 characters including his own) , Appolyon, The Asgardian Destroyer, Black Racer (No) , Blackheart, Blaze, Count Abyss, Death Urge, Desert (One win, one loss) , The Doctor, Doomsday (Only koed combined with Brainiac ), Dr. Fate (No) , Eclipse (No) , Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Ferns (TP) , GOG (Yes, but he is skyfather level) , Gray Man, High Evolutionary, Ion (current) (No) , Jenny Quantum, The Keeper, King Thor, Magus (original), Mangog, Mongul I (Pre Crisis), Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Queen of Fables( No, even Depowered Superman fought her) , Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott)(No) , Silver Age Kryptonians/Dax a mites (No) , Solusandra, Stayne, Strange Visitor (No, defeated her) , Sun Eater (No) , Superboy Prime (No, not even combination with Time Trapper's power) , Superman 1 Million, Takion, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus
Tier 3 - Herald
High
Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Cyborg Superman (No, outright defeated several times and even amped couldn't defeat him) , Dr. Strange (classic), Doomsday (Gog Wars)(No) , The Eradicator (Fortress Mode) (No) , Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan)(No) , Infinity-Man (No, not even when he was amped) , Majestic, Moonstone (w/ both stones), Quasar, Qztr, Silver Surfer, Sinestro (No) , Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman, Swamp Thing (No, he did to Rebirth Superman but he was weakened) , Talisman, Thor(No) Zoom II (Hunter Solomon)(No)
You are welcome to add more heralds if you want.
Originally posted by -Pr-
It's comics. There's almost always context.But to say that NO herald AT ALL could knock out Superman? Wait, which version are we talking about?
In a fight? Not really. He is just too tough for any herald level character to best with raw power.
