Wonder Woman vs. Superman

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm not asking you to prove a negative. I'm asking you to prove that his punches were done in super speed in the gif you posted. So far your only explanation is "He's punching at super speed because that's part of his powerset".

Well heck if that's how we're going to do it then I can simply say "Wonder Woman always fights in super speed because that's part of her powerset".

What's your stance on a being with superspeed and super strength, shown punching?

When they are using might, do you consider them to be punching far faster than a human, despite the acting arm moving at human speeds?

Originally posted by h1a8
What's your stance on a being with superspeed and super strength, shown punching?

When they are using might, do you consider them to be punching far faster than a human, despite the acting arm moving at human speeds?

I think it's important to differentiate between the speed a person takes to deliver a punch versus the final velocity of the punch itself just before impact.

To put this in perspective, a martial artist's kick will generally hit with a velocity around twice as fast as their punching velocity. But the same person will almost always be able to launch punches faster than they are able to kick. A skilled fighter will be able to launch around 2-3 punch combinations in the time it will take them to make one good kick.

So to answer your question, I think a person with super strength would be able to generate a very high end velocity for their punches, as their strength would allow them to propel their limbs with much higher force (thus velocity) than the average person. However, that does not mean that they are able to perform these movements at super speed.

So basically what I'm saying is that punching speed is different from the final velocity of the punch itself.

Originally posted by FrothByte
To me, super speed needs to be shown in some form of visual manner. Either you speed up the action or you slow everything else down in relation to that action.

But now that I understand where you're coming from, I can adjust my arguments better in this regard.

So here's my next question: If you believe they are always moving in super speed and that DD is not quite as fast as Superman, how was DD able to land hits on Superman?

Some times slower fighters can land hits on faster ones. It happens all the time in real life fights. Mayweather is insanely fast and agile, but even he's been rocked a few times. In any case, I don't think the speed gap is that big.

As for Superman getting tagged by DD, all the times Doomsday landed hits on him were when Superman was trying to bullrush him. Clark never really fought defensively, which is to be expected of someone who's used to being the strongest.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Some times slower fighters can land hits on faster ones. It happens all the time in real life fights. Mayweather is insanely fast and agile, but even he's been rocked a few times. In any case, I don't think the speed gap is that big.

As for Superman getting tagged by DD, all the times Doomsday landed hits on him were when Superman was trying to bullrush him. Clark never really fought defensively, which is to be expected of someone who's used to being the strongest.

Ok fair enough. So my next question is, if you don't think that the speed difference between DD and Superman is all that great, would you say that the speed difference between WW and Superman isn't all that great either?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Ok fair enough. So my next question is, if you don't think that the speed difference between DD and Superman is all that great, would you say that the speed difference between WW and Superman isn't all that great either?

Superman's movement speed is far greater. As for reflexes, it's hard to say. Neither fought a speedster, both have bullet time feats. I do believe Superman has much greater raw speed, though. Diana's reflexes are to a large degree due to training.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I think it's important to differentiate between the speed a person takes to deliver a punch versus the final velocity of the punch itself just before impact.

To put this in perspective, a martial artist's kick will generally hit with a velocity around twice as fast as their punching velocity. But the same person will almost always be able to launch punches faster than they are able to kick. A skilled fighter will be able to launch around 2-3 punch combinations in the time it will take them to make one good kick.

So to answer your question, I think a person with super strength would be able to generate a very high end velocity for their punches, as their strength would allow them to propel their limbs with much higher force (thus velocity) than the average person. However, that does not mean that they are able to perform these movements at super speed.

So basically what I'm saying is that punching speed is different from the final velocity of the punch itself.

You didn't quite answer my question.
1. I assumed BOTH superspeed and superstrength, not just superstrength.
2. I wanted your stance on necessary speed (final speed included) vs. acting speed.

P.S. The talk about your point, Acceleration is constant when under a constant force. That means a person fist will speed up at a uniform rate when they are punching with a constant (or near constant) force. The time it takes for the punch to be completely thrown can be precisely calculated from knowing the mass of the arm and the force generated through the punch, or just knowing the final velocity only.

If Superman is punching with superspeed or just superstrength then he should be throwing punches that are not visible by a human within the latter 90% of the punch.

I can show you the math but I feel it's irrelevant since I don't know your stance yet.

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't quite answer my question.
1. I assumed BOTH superspeed and superstrength, not just superstrength.
2. I wanted your stance on necessary speed (final speed included) vs. acting speed.

P.S. The talk about your point, Acceleration is constant when under a constant force. That means a person fist will speed up at a uniform rate when they are punching with a constant (or near constant) force. The time it takes for the punch to be completely thrown can be precisely calculated from knowing the mass of the arm and the force generated through the punch, or just knowing the final velocity only.

If Superman is punching with superspeed or just superstrength then he should be throwing punches that are not visible by a human within the latter 90% of the punch.

I can show you the math but I feel it's irrelevant since I don't know your stance yet.

I don't think you understand how punches work. It is not as simple as merely accelerating your fist forward. You have to first prep your body to make sure you get maximum force out of it, whether that means aligning your body at a proper angle, torquing your body to gather momentum, swinging back to get more space, etc. Then there's also recovering from the hit and the speed it takes to launch a follow up.

That's why kicks are slower to deliver than punches despite the fact that kicks actually travel at higher velocity.

To answer your question, if an actor can only deliver punches at a certain speed then I will interpret it as them delivering it at that speed. There are multiple ways to get around this issue in modern cinema, from using stunt doubles to using special effects to make them seem faster to using slow motion for the rest of the people in the background, etc.

So in my opinion, if a movie is only able to portray a character's punching speed as fast as the actor can deliver it, then that's only as fast as it should be interpreted. Because if they want to show it being faster then there are multiple ways to do so.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'm not asking you to prove a negative. I'm asking you to prove that his punches were done in super speed in the gif you posted. So far your only explanation is "He's punching at super speed because that's part of his powerset".

Well heck if that's how we're going to do it then I can simply say "Wonder Woman always fights in super speed because that's part of her powerset".

I'd like to see something which proves it wasn't done at Superspeed other than your inane bullshit.

Except she doesn't.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't think you understand how punches work. It is not as simple as merely accelerating your fist forward. You have to first prep your body to make sure you get maximum force out of it, whether that means aligning your body at a proper angle, torquing your body to gather momentum, swinging back to get more space, etc. Then there's also recovering from the hit and the speed it takes to launch a follow up.

That's why kicks are slower to deliver than punches despite the fact that kicks actually travel at higher velocity.

To answer your question, if an actor can only deliver punches at a certain speed then I will interpret it as them delivering it at that speed. There are multiple ways to get around this issue in modern cinema, from using stunt doubles to using special effects to make them seem faster to using slow motion for the rest of the people in the background, etc.

So in my opinion, if a movie is only able to portray a character's punching speed as fast as the actor can deliver it, then that's only as fast as it should be interpreted. Because if they want to show it being faster then there are multiple ways to do so.

This is just idiotic. So now without slow motion and flash stepping, Superman is only as fast as Henry Cavill in real life?

Did you hit your head sometimes in past?

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it's in Superspeed because it is.

I don't think you understand how debates here work. We use feats here in MvF. If it's not backed up by feats then it doesn't count. You throwing a tantrum "It is because it is!" does not count.

Speed is visual. If it looks like it's being done in regular speed then there's no way it can be superspeed. This is common sense. You can't just claim it is superspeed without any proof whatsoever.

Originally posted by abhilegend
😂

This is just idiotic. So now without slow motion and flash stepping, Superman is only as fast as Henry Cavill in real life?

Did you hit your head sometimes in past?

I have wondered the same thing

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't think you understand how debates here work. We use feats here in MvF. If it's not backed up by feats then it doesn't count. You throwing a tantrum "It is because it is!" does not count.

Speed is visual. If it looks like it's being done in regular speed then there's no way it can be superspeed. This is common sense. You can't just claim it is superspeed without any proof whatsoever.

Dude you are dumb. So because 300 was in slow mo, the spartans were moving at super speed?? This is laughable, and you do this over and over. "Because we can see them move, that means they are not moving fast." Logic for idiots

Froths idea of "its slow cause we can see it" just fell apart.

"
In 2014 a study by Potter and colleagues at MIT revealed that the brain can process and interpret images presented to the eyes for as little as_13 milliseconds, eight times faster than what researchers had thought in the past (100 milliseconds).

Second, how fast can our eyes move?

A saccade is a quick eye movement. It has been long understood that saccades move at a_maximum peak rate of about 900 degrees per second_but what does translate to in terms that are easier to understand? Apparently, someone was wondering the same thing and actually took the time to do the math and came up with a speed of about_0.42 MPH. Now that may sound “slow” but when you think about how short of a distance the eyes have to travel to switch their direction of gaze, it is quite fast."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cheryl-g-murphy/how-fast-can-the-eyes-see_b_7749510.html

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't think you understand how punches work. It is not as simple as merely accelerating your fist forward. You have to first prep your body to make sure you get maximum force out of it, whether that means aligning your body at a proper angle, torquing your body to gather momentum, swinging back to get more space, etc. Then there's also recovering from the hit and the speed it takes to launch a follow up.

That's why kicks are slower to deliver than punches despite the fact that kicks actually travel at higher velocity.

To answer your question, if an actor can only deliver punches at a certain speed then I will interpret it as them delivering it at that speed. There are multiple ways to get around this issue in modern cinema, from using stunt doubles to using special effects to make them seem faster to using slow motion for the rest of the people in the background, etc.

So in my opinion, if a movie is only able to portray a character's punching speed as fast as the actor can deliver it, then that's only as fast as it should be interpreted. Because if they want to show it being faster then there are multiple ways to do so.

It's impossible to throw a punch with human speed, using your might, but at the last instant (0.01% of the punch) your fist travels many times faster than a human.

Ok, so you champion visual speed as true speed at all times. So Cap, WS, would not be able to tag a real professional fighter. The guy in the bar in the movie NEXT punches faster than Cap and WS.

Well that would mean you would have to agree to disagree with anyone who champions necessary speed to achieve a feat when it comes to discussing speed.

It's impossible to punch at human speed and launch a 200lb object at half the speed of sound or more. How can the hit object's (which has more mass) velocity exceed that of the object that struck it (lesser mass)?

It's also impossible to fly, shoot lasers out of your eyes or open portals to other worlds. welcome to suspension of disbelief.

Originally posted by h1a8
When throwing a punch, the fist accelerates approximately uniform in magnitude. You can analyze videos to validate this. That means the speed up is at a constant rate. It's fairly simple.

It's impossible to throw a punch with human speed, using your might, but at the last instant (0.01% of the punch) your fist travels many times faster than a human.

Ok, so you champion visual speed as true speed at all times. So Cap, WS, would not be able to tag a real professional fighter. The guy in the bar in the movie NEXT punches faster than Cap and WS.

Well that would mean you would have to agree to disagree with anyone who champions necessary speed to achieve a feat when it comes to discussing speed.

It's impossible to punch at human speed and launch a 200lb object at half the speed of sound or more. How can the hit object's (which has more mass) velocity exceed that of the object that struck it (lesser mass)?

Err... no. A punch does not accelerate with uniform magnitude, at least it depends on the punch and the mechanics of it. Stepping forward at the last minute just before the punch hits makes sure it accelerates faster at the last minute. A drop punch achieves something similar. Torquing your hips towards the end of a kick makes sure it's accelerating faster at the end than it did in the beginning.

Fight scenes with Captain America and Winter Soldier utilize stuntmen, shaky cam, close up shots and sped up frame rates to create the illusion that they are faster than heavyweight professional fighters. So your argument here holds no weight since visually, they actually do seem faster than professional heavyweight fighters. At least for most of the time. Every now and then they might throw a hit that looks slow, but then again not every movement a professional fighter makes is always at top speed.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Err... no. A punch does not accelerate with uniform magnitude, at least it depends on the punch and the mechanics of it. Stepping forward at the last minute just before the punch hits makes sure it accelerates faster at the last minute. A drop punch achieves something similar. Torquing your hips towards the end of a kick makes sure it's accelerating faster at the end than it did in the beginning.

Fight scenes with Captain America and Winter Soldier utilize stuntmen, shaky cam, close up shots and sped up frame rates to create the illusion that they are faster than heavyweight professional fighters. So your argument here holds no weight since visually, they actually do seem faster than professional heavyweight fighters. At least for most of the time. Every now and then they might throw a hit that looks slow, but then again not every movement a professional fighter makes is always at top speed.

As you can tell, h1 doesn't have a lot of exp with fighting.

If we can see it, it must not be fast😂

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't think you understand how debates here work. We use feats here in MvF. If it's not backed up by feats then it doesn't count. You throwing a tantrum "It is because it is!" does not count.

Speed is visual. If it looks like it's being done in regular speed then there's no way it can be superspeed. This is common sense. You can't just claim it is superspeed without any proof whatsoever.

You really don't know how to read or understand anything, do you? Superman punching Zod while flying is him punching at Superspeed because he is already using Superspeed.

You need to prove it was done at human level speed. Just because it was done in real time doesn't mean it was Henry Cavill punching Michael Shannon.

Your tantrums are amusing though.

This is seriously hilarious.

No, it's punching while flying really fast.