Classic Living Tribunal vs Ultimate Ultimates

now you're getting into even more purely speculative areas. eternity as long and often been considered a multiverse. there are many examples of this. but the true multiversal eternity, as was discussed in that famous what if issue was never seen on panel anywhere so we have no idea how powerful he really was. regardless, classic lt was multiversal too, with aspects of himself in all realities. if each aspect was above the universal form of eternity, i don't see why his totality wouldn't be above the multiversal form of eternity. /shrug

as mentioned above, lt was also shown capable of holding megaverses at his classic power levels. there are no proofs of these stances, but that feat would seem to lend support to lt's overall, pre retcon power levels.

Originally posted by abhilegend
As per latest retcon in Ultimates, LT is merely an inner function of Eternity.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EfNlsuxhQ0w/WZSDnvHGsII/AAAAAAAAsGs/WiMq6bR0wNkWf-zkcTIxGrgcXFFhmFiPACLcBGAs/s1600/061_0026.jpg
Starlin retconned his own version of LT and Eternity as universal though. The current iteration of Eternity is the sums of all Eternities.

LT was all hype and no substance.

LT was created by TOAA to serve a function within Eternity. That has always been and is not a retcon. In issue 3, LT is described as the most powerful being in creation before the hierarchy goes into flux. So nothing has changed.

Worth noting that Ewing still regarding the Living Tribunals in each universe as the most powerful beings in creation(under 'normal' cosmological circumstances, I would assume):

...Just to make things even more confusing. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas
now you're getting into even more purely speculative areas. eternity as long and often been considered a multiverse. there are many examples of this. but the true multiversal eternity, as was discussed in that famous what if issue was never seen on panel anywhere so we have no idea how powerful he really was. regardless, classic lt was multiversal too, with aspects of himself in all realities. if each aspect was above the universal form of eternity, i don't see why his totality wouldn't be above the multiversal form of eternity. /shrug

as mentioned above, lt was also shown capable of holding megaverses at his classic power levels. there are no proofs of these stances, but that feat would seem to lend support to lt's overall, pre retcon power levels.

hrm, seems i said WHAT IF issue. obviously i meant the famous FF issue.... and yeah, just so...weird that he was considered the most powerful but was killed off so easily. i know the idea of 'transition' was the excuse used to explain away order and chaos killing him, but the whole thing just felt confusing. didn't enjoy the climax in ultimates 100 either. too easy, maybe? all the past iterations just show up? hrm. and i guess there is no more oaa? like galan, i had the def sense that lt is now below the multiversal iterations. worst of all, ewing went back on his original idea of changing galactus BACK to purple!

me am disappoint.

Originally posted by Galan007
Worth noting that Ewing still regarding the Living Tribunals in each universe as the most powerful beings in creation(under 'normal' cosmological circumstances, I would assume):

...Just to make things even more confusing. 👆

I think that Ewing refers to one single multiversal LT that he refers to plurally (beings) due to the three faces.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
LT was created by TOAA to serve a function within Eternity. That has always been and is not a retcon. In issue 3, LT is described as the most powerful being in creation before the hierarchy goes into flux. So nothing has changed.

Yes he was stated to be the most powerful being in creation AFTER he was killed. Eternity resurrected him.

Eternity>>>>LT now.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Eternity>>>>LT now.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is absurd that Ewing has made LT's existence/function completely dependent on Eternity, but that doesn't make it any less canon.

srug

Originally posted by TheHulkster
LT was created by TOAA to serve a function within Eternity. That has always been and is not a retcon. In issue 3, LT is described as the most powerful being in creation before the hierarchy goes into flux. So nothing has changed.

Quite right.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, pretty much. 👆

Don't get me wrong, I think it is absurd that Ewing has made LT's existence/function completely dependent on Eternity, but that doesn't make it any less canon.

srug

Where is that stated?

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's never been stated before.

Yes he was stated to be the most powerful being in creation AFTER he was killed. Eternity resurrected him.

Eternity>>>>LT now.

No. LT is in par with M Eternity.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Where is that stated?

Before Eternity had solidified, and when he was being held captive by the First Firmament, ALL members of the cosmic/abstract hierarchy(inc. LT himself) were in a state of flux as a corollary -- that's why Order & Chaos were able to outright murder LT and usurp his position, for example... But when the First Firmament was beaten and Eternity had solidified, ALL members of the cosmic/abstract hierarchy(inc. LT himself) were able to assume their 'proper' cosmological roles once more.

So like I said: this means the power/function of the ENTIRE cosmic hierarchy is wholly dependent on the health and stability of Eternity... If he's healthy, they're healthy; if he's stable, they're stable.

...Like it or not, that's simply how shit is right now. 🙂

Okay. First of all the Marvel Universe wasnt retconned just modified. Meaning that all previous events to the 8th Multiverse are prevailing (consider all previous events like history; the past)

Now. The role of the Living Tribunal is specifically stated. To Cast judgement and to keep cosmic balance. Also it is specifically stated that he is 2nd to TOAA. Now, does this mean he is inmortal and all powerfull? No? As can be seen when the Beyonders and Lord Chaos&Master Order killed him. No why was this?

1. LT vs The Beyonders: We know the LT lost this battle. Why? To Answer the question its required to ask a question. Was any cosmic balance broken? The answer lies within the definition of The Beyonders. They are from Beyond. They dont belong to the Multiverse. And therefore the Tribunal cant cast judgement. So the tribunals powers are limited to his nature. As long as there isnt a case the tribunals powers are equals to none.

I have another theory for this one which makes more sense. But i will state it if necessary.

2. LT vs Order and Chaos: We know that the Tribunal lost against this multiversal beings and you might say this breaks the upper statement.
Now i ask you this question? Was a cosmic balance broken? The answer lies withinthe same comic. No. The Tribunal himself stated that the universe was young, and that Hierchy was setted. This justifies Chaos and Order actions and the Tribunal cant cast judgement. As result Tribunals powers equals to none and perishes.

Conclusion. The Power of the tribunal is limitted to the "case". As long as there is a case, the tribunal is Omnipotent and second to TOAA. This includes Multiversal Eternity. Should he break balance the Tribunal can and will judge. Since he was created by TOAA to keep balance in the Multiverse. Contrary to what some have said the LT isnt limitted by the Multiverse (Multiversal eternity since now the Multiverse is Eternity)

ermm

That's simply not what is shown on panel.

Originally posted by Galan007
It was explicitly stated/shown on panel throughout Ewing's Ultimates run...

Before Eternity had solidified, and when he was being held captive by the First Firmament, ALL members of the cosmic/abstract hierarchy(inc. LT himself) were in a state of flux as a corollary -- that's why Order & Chaos were able to outright murder LT and usurp his position, for example... But when the First Firmament was beaten and Eternity had solidified, ALL members of the cosmic/abstract hierarchy(inc. LT himself) were able to assume their 'proper' cosmological roles once more.

So like I said: this means the power/function of the ENTIRE cosmic hierarchy is wholly dependent on the health and stability of Eternity... If he's healthy, they're healthy; if he's stable, they're stable.

...Like it or not, that's simply how shit is right now. 🙂

Hmmm. The tribunal said that the cosmic hierchy was being formed. This is the result of the creations and formation of the 8th universe. Not because Eternity was captive. LT was killed i believe before that.

Eternity was chained before LT was killed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Eternity was chained before LT was killed.

Yet. Again Tribunal cant judge that cause no cosmic balance is being broken. He stated it. Hierchy being formed means he couldnt cast sentence.

He casted his judgment just fine for Galactus being Lifebringer.

No, he declined to cast judgement for or against either side. LT having a symbiotic relationship with the multiversal Eternity has nothing to do with the hierarchy. LT is stated to be the most powerful being in all creation.

He did. He said that as it was a new multiverse he could be whatever he was.

LT is resurrected by Eternity being free. That's more than a symbiotic relationship.

He says that until things are established, he cannot set a precedent. It's like a judge telling the two sides to work it out.

LT's death and coming back are both part of the multiverse being in flux. It has nothing to with an established multiverse and is all about a symbiotic relationship. Nothing to support your lowballing based, far reaching extrapolation.

Originally posted by TheHulkster
He says that until things are established, he cannot set a precedent. It's like a judge telling the two sides to work it out.

LT's death and coming back are both part of the multiverse being in flux. It has nothing to with an established multiverse and is all about a symbiotic relationship. Nothing to support your lowballing based, far reaching extrapolation.

Him being resurrected is directly done by Eternity. Directly shown. You can make the excuses though as you always do.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He ruled against Chaos and Order. Hence why they rebelled against him.

Him being resurrected is directly done by Eternity. Directly shown.

No. The Tribunal didn't judge. He said he couldn't cause the cosmic hierchy was being formed (basically saying that anything could be done). If he would have judge then Chaos and Order wouldn't have interfered.

Now the Tribunal appears again after Eternity is finally free. But this doesnt mean he is affected or dependent on Eternity. I'll tell you why. And it goes all back to Cosmic balance.

Eternity is one of the 4 entities of balance. Meaning before the secret wars. Every universe had an eternity. But it also had a Mistress Death, and infinity, and an
Oblivion. 4 entities representing balance in each universe and therefore balance in the multiverse.

Now moving back again to the present. Presently we have a Multiversal Eternity. But because of the nature of the Marvel Universe it can also be known that there must be a Multiversal Death, Infinity, and Oblivion. Now who is the one in charge of keeping this balance? The Living Tribunal.

So according to this. Where Eternity opposites Death, and Infinity opposites Oblivion we find the Living Tribunal in the middle representing cosmic balance. Now, this means that - as I said before - the Living Tribunal is independent from any of these characters but again dependent on them as a whole (meaning that if cosmic balance is broken to a point in where the 4 cosmic entities are affected then the LT is also).

Now. Let's create an scenario in where Eternity breaks cosmic balance. Let's say he turns dark and begins to attack Death, Infinity, and Oblivion. Cosmic balance is broken, for eternity represents eternity, and then his role is broken as "eterniy". The Tribunal can then step in and cast judgement on Multiversal Eternity and force him to his normal duties. Now if Oblivion or Death were to do the same....The Tribunal can't cast judgement. Simply because it's the nature of this beings to kill. Similar to what happened with the Beyonders, although the Tribunal stepped in he had no right nor case to stop them. Since the Beyonders wanted the destruction of everything, they were representations of Oblivion. (No cosmic balance being broken)

The LT is a hard character to understand. Mainly because cosmic balance can be interpreted in several ways.