Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
[QUOTE=16311586]Originally posted by abhilegend
[B]These do not show what you are trying to convey though.Good try.
[/QUdOTE]Did you read properly. Cause they do. [/B]
LT is all hype and nothing to show.
Originally posted by "Id"
Topic States "CLASSIC" LT. If the Original Poster is referring to this incarnation of LT, than LT is the superior of the two.
Originally posted by Astner
Ah. The good old day where the Living Tribunal tried to destroy a planet by blowing up mountains one at a time.
Originally posted by abhilegend
No, they don't. You're arguing that with cosmic imbalance, LT can do whatever he wants. Korvac, MC2 and Beyonders say otherwise where there was cosmic imbalance and LT couldn't do anything about it.LT is all hype and nothing to show.
Wrong. The tribunal can do whatever he want thats true. But as I said before, his powers become limited when there is no case.
The Beyonders for instance where not breaking any cosmic balance and therefore the Tribunal lost when facing them. What makes you claim that a cosmic balance was broken?
Originally posted by leonidas
well, the multiverse dying would seem to imply an imbalance. if he didn't perceive an imbalance why would he have bothered to try fighting them at all....? 😕
Yeah I analyzed that for quite sometime and came to a conclusion. What happens if all the multiversal is dying? Will The Tribunal intercede because there is an inbalance or because he can't stand seeing his multiverse dying?
Because again when we go to consider what cosmic imbalance means we get to understand better the Tribunal. Throughout the several comics we've learnt that the multiversal is born and dies time and time again...untilmnow when the Beyonders appear and killnitnagain just to be born again... So, does that seems like an imbalance now? If we see it at a cosmic perspective as there is Eterrnity and Infinity (representing the Living and healthy multiverse) there is also death and Oblivion (The dying multiverse). What If the Beyonders are heralds of Oblivion and Death? What if the Beyonders represent a Omniversal Galactus, which needs to destroy in Order for life to be born?
That would explain why the LT couldn't stop them! To me the Beyonders are needed to destroy multiversal so new ones can be born...it would make perfect sense. Just like the LT represent TOAA's judge, the Beyonders would represent TOAA's eraser.
it was made pretty clear through the longggg arc that the incursion that started the collapse of the mutliverse wasn't part of the natural order though--it brought about the PREMATURE end of the multiverse. and obviously no beyonders were used to end the previous multiverse that birthed galactus... that also begs the question--if lt didn't perceive it as an unnatural ending, but rather the beyonders just doing their job, then why would he act at all? he isn't an emotional entity, don't see him as being 'attached' to the multiverse since he should know he'd simply be reborn in the next one... and you'd think if your speculation was right about the beyonders somehow serving toaa, that lt would recognize that and let them go about their business. /shrug
Originally posted by leonidas
it was made pretty clear through the longggg arc that the incursion that started the collapse of the mutliverse wasn't part of the natural order though--it brought about the PREMATURE end of the multiverse. and obviously no beyonders were used to end the previous multiverse that birthed galactus... that also begs the question--if lt didn't perceive it as an unnatural ending, but rather the beyonders just doing their job, then why would he act at all? he isn't an emotional entity, don't see him as being 'attached' to the multiverse since he should know he'd simply be reborn in the next one... and you'd think if your speculation was right about the beyonders somehow serving toaa, that lt would recognize that and let them go about their business. /shrug
Well that's very much true. However if the multiverse ends what happens to the Tribunal? It's not an emotional thing, it is a must do thing. The Tribunal has to step In because he has and not because there is a case. Could you show panels were it states that it is a premature ending, cause I don't remember reading that.
Besides where did you read that there is a timing for the multiverse to die? All am saying is, it makes perfect sense for the Beyonders to represent a form of Oblivion/Death of the Multiverse. Furthermore, the ending of the Multiverse of Galactus wasn't given a reason...so that cliffhanger is there.
And not really...The fact that TOAA created both LT and the Beyonders doesn't mean that these knew each other.
Another reason why there couldn't be a case is because the Beyonders are from Beyond. They don't belong to the Multiverse and therefore don't make part of the Cosmic balance of the Multiverse. Therefore, they could make part of an Omniversal Cosmic Balance...as I said before, they could be a form of Multiverse eating Galactus.
These are Theories though. But they give good reasons why the LT lost the battle in Time Runs Out.
the mutliverse ends too soon as a result of the incursions. that is...pretty damn unnatural imo.
as for the natural ending of things--that has been referenced several times. galactus has made reference to the end of things, and his role at the end. he even had a conversation with franklin richards not long ago referencing having someone there AT the end to see it with. we even see the natural end when the previous multiverse died only to be reborn. in THIS case, HUMANS had to survive for there to even BE a new multiverse, since reed and the others were the ones who shaped and formed it. again, proof that the end of the previous multiverse was anything but natural...
the rest, and many of your posts, are wayyy too speculatory for my liking and honestly, it doesn't make much sense. the beyonders have a very long history in marvel. they've been around since, like, 1979 or 1980? they exist outside the multiverse, are the source of cubes and cube beings, etc... they are not toaa's erasers and never have been remotely depicted in such a way. they've an established history and the entire plan revolving around owen reece and making him into a bomb to destroy the multiverse was explained as part of an experiment to end everything.
they were simply depicted as being beyond lt. it's no more complicated than that, like the original sw beyonder was...beyond him. no reason for speculation. /shrug
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Wrong. The tribunal can do whatever he want thats true. But as I said before, his powers become limited when there is no case.The Beyonders for instance where not breaking any cosmic balance and therefore the Tribunal lost when facing them. What makes you claim that a cosmic balance was broken?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/dXWdX8WXbBH7i5kSVjkIzChlKGj5fK6kixKiepGlwj-76IAG_1RKzPu_lVoN9LY2H4JrrUy1ZLjuvA=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/E9luKtFC7--uxAqNK0vN7fvZKOQUwExl8oegLtvrUWQSjk-KySFlf3PpYbcR__Lf_DTq9jQFAs9zlw=s1600
Originally posted by leonidas
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/avengersalliance/images/e/ee/Incursion_Explanation.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130805010131the mutliverse ends too soon as a result of the incursions. that is...pretty damn unnatural imo.
as for the natural ending of things--that has been referenced several times. galactus has made reference to the end of things, and his role at the end. he even had a conversation with franklin richards not long ago referencing having someone there AT the end to see it with. we even see the natural end when the previous multiverse died only to be reborn. in THIS case, HUMANS had to survive for there to even BE a new multiverse, since reed and the others were the ones who shaped and formed it. again, proof that the end of the previous multiverse was anything but natural...
the rest, and many of your posts, are wayyy too speculatory for my liking and honestly, it doesn't make much sense. the beyonders have a very long history in marvel. they've been around since, like, 1979 or 1980? they exist outside the multiverse, are the source of cubes and cube beings, etc... they are not toaa's erasers and never have been remotely depicted in such a way. they've an established history and the entire plan revolving around owen reece and making him into a bomb to destroy the multiverse was explained as part of an experiment to end everything.
they were simply depicted as being beyond lt. it's no more complicated than that, like the original sw beyonder was...beyond him. no reason for speculation. /shrug
I love good discussions man! 😂
Okay. First of all, the way Universe 6 ended doesn't mean that all universes ended that way. For instance, as we are informed in the Ultimates, the first universe was the First Firmament. But it all ended when the Celestials fought the Aspirants tearing FF appart. This lead to the creation of the 2nd Multiverse (Eternity). Does this mean that the 6th Multiverse (Galactus Universe) ended that way? No. The samething applies here, the 7 Multiverse didn't end up as the 6th, in the same way as the 6th didn't end up like the 1st. So that statement of yours doesnt make much sense.
Now, going back again. The same beyonders told that they were performing an "experiment". Now they never said what the experiment was. However we were let to assume that they wanted to destroy the Multiverse, but did it mean they were gonna leave it destroy? Not really. They could have created a New Multiverse out of the Older one, and therefore giving birth to the 8th Universe. So your point that without the Humans there could have been no 8th Multiverse isn't completely true.
Lets move to the Tribunal once again. Again there was NO CASE! You yourself have proven so! Either way, either am wrong or correct on the point that the Beyonders are a natural thing, still there is no way for a CASE to exist. As you yourself said, the Beyonders are not from the Multiverse. When we say beyonders, we are refering to beings of an Omniversal scale! The Living Tribunal is the keeper of cosmic balance in the Multiverse. Yeah! Lets say you are right and there was a cosmic imbalance; there was reallly none since a cosmic imbalance must happen within the same Multiverse. In this case, the Beyonders don't represent a cosmic imbalance since they don't belong to the Multiverse, therefore there was no Case for the LT to win. See? One way or another the Tribunal had no case.
Now, I know the Beyonders have been around for quite long time. Now, the information we have on them is almost none! Throughout all the topic of the Beyonders we know more about the Cosmic Cubes, MM, The Beyonder, than of the race itself! The only time when we really got to see the Beyonders powers and abilites was at Secret Wars and Time Runs Out, and yet we know little. Won't you agree? When we include the Beyonders in any Topic we can do nothing but SPECULATE. For instance, Who Created Them? What do they want? Where do they live? etc. etc. etc. Its required for us to SPECULATE in this cases.
Yeah am speculating a lot, but speculation becomes THEORIES when there are strong arguments. Now, I could be wrong, or you could be. In this topic anyone could be wrong.
But nice discussion. It is always nice to hear others points. 🙂
Originally posted by abhilegend
There was a case for all of these. In case of Korvac it was flat out stated that he was causing imbalance in the multiverse.http://2.bp.blogspot.com/dXWdX8WXbBH7i5kSVjkIzChlKGj5fK6kixKiepGlwj-76IAG_1RKzPu_lVoN9LY2H4JrrUy1ZLjuvA=s1600
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/E9luKtFC7--uxAqNK0vN7fvZKOQUwExl8oegLtvrUWQSjk-KySFlf3PpYbcR__Lf_DTq9jQFAs9zlw=s1600
Hmm! I hadn't read this comic before! What comic is it?
Now ITS FUNNY! Cause your own comic proofs my point. In the second link you find proofs of my statement.
As you can see already the Tribunal has a case. NOW in this case he is OMNIPOTENT to do anything to bring back Balance.
In the second link, You can see that Korvac has stopped the Tribunal since he is also Omnipotent i think! But again, Now that the Tribunal Has a case, he can do anything and is Second to TOAA at a Multiversal Scale
In the Second link, in the down panels. The Tribunal states that he is the guardian of the entire Multiverse. And since he can't stop the threat within the Universe, He will have to seal that Universe.
The Tribunal didn't lost! It doesn't matter how OMNIPOTENT Korvac is in that Universe he won't be able to do more. The Tribunal has SEALED that Reality from the Rest of the Universe. He has casted Judgement.
So, i don't see why you claim that the Tribunal lost this case?
This is the first time i read those panels and I could already see my Theories gaining strenght.
When you read a comic you don't only need to read the lines but also understand the whole panorama and relate it with the Continuity. That's how you get to understand better the characters and their roles.
😉
Originally posted by leonidas
now you're getting into even more purely speculative areas. eternity as long and often been considered a multiverse. there are many examples of this. but the true multiversal eternity, as was discussed in that famous what if issue was never seen on panel anywhere so we have no idea how powerful he really was. regardless, classic lt was multiversal too, with aspects of himself in all realities. if each aspect was above the universal form of eternity, i don't see why his totality wouldn't be above the multiversal form of eternity. /shrugas mentioned above, lt was also shown capable of holding megaverses at his classic power levels. there are no proofs of these stances, but that feat would seem to lend support to lt's overall, pre retcon power levels.
This Eternity was seeing in Ultimates from Ewing. He even said that every universe has a Eternity, but the one in chains was the multiversal (he even used the word omniversal eternity).
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
The problem is those old comics who say LT > Eternity, is talking about universal eternity, not the "Multiversal Eternity" from Ewing Ultimates...Another thing, now think about this...God Emperor Doom should be
definitely above Multiversal Eternity right? I guess this is a good hint that he is > LT
Not really. I wouldn't say that Multiversal Eternity > LT. It would rather be more Multiversal Eternity = LT.
However, as i mentioned in several comments before, LT is still on top when casting Judgement is concerned so i guess Eternity would go down in this area.
Hmmm....IDK! God Emperor Doom should be in par with LT. However God emperor doom > M.E.
The Thing is LT is second to TOAA at a Multiversal Scale. That is pretty clear. So, in that aspect LT is still on top of Multiversal Eternity and Doom. That is ofcourse so long there is a case or trial.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I love good discussions man! 😂Okay. First of all, the way Universe 6 ended doesn't mean that all universes ended that way. For instance, as we are informed in the Ultimates, the first universe was the First Firmament. But it all ended when the Celestials fought the Aspirants tearing FF appart. This lead to the creation of the 2nd Multiverse (Eternity). Does this mean that the 6th Multiverse (Galactus Universe) ended that way? No. The samething applies here, the 7 Multiverse didn't end up as the 6th, in the same way as the 6th didn't end up like the 1st. So that statement of yours doesnt make much sense.
Now, going back again. The same beyonders told that they were performing an "experiment". Now they never said what the experiment was. However we were let to assume that they wanted to destroy the Multiverse, but did it mean they were gonna leave it destroy? Not really. They could have created a New Multiverse out of the Older one, and therefore giving birth to the 8th Universe. So your point that without the Humans there could have been no 8th Multiverse isn't completely true.
Lets move to the Tribunal once again. Again there was NO CASE! You yourself have proven so! Either way, either am wrong or correct on the point that the Beyonders are a natural thing, still there is no way for a CASE to exist. As you yourself said, the Beyonders are not from the Multiverse. When we say beyonders, we are refering to beings of an Omniversal scale! The Living Tribunal is the keeper of cosmic balance in the Multiverse. Yeah! Lets say you are right and there was a cosmic imbalance; there was reallly none since a cosmic imbalance must happen within the same Multiverse. In this case, the Beyonders don't represent a cosmic imbalance since they don't belong to the Multiverse, therefore there was no Case for the LT to win. See? One way or another the Tribunal had no case.
Now, I know the Beyonders have been around for quite long time. Now, the information we have on them is almost none! Throughout all the topic of the Beyonders we know more about the Cosmic Cubes, MM, The Beyonder, than of the race itself! The only time when we really got to see the Beyonders powers and abilites was at Secret Wars and Time Runs Out, and yet we know little. Won't you agree? When we include the Beyonders in any Topic we can do nothing but SPECULATE. For instance, Who Created Them? What do they want? Where do they live? etc. etc. etc. Its required for us to SPECULATE in this cases.
Yeah am speculating a lot, but speculation becomes THEORIES when there are strong arguments. Now, I could be wrong, or you could be. In this topic anyone could be wrong.
But nice discussion. It is always nice to hear others points. 🙂
Hmm! I hadn't read this comic before! What comic is it?
Now ITS FUNNY! Cause your own comic proofs my point. In the second link you find proofs of my statement.
As you can see already the Tribunal has a case. NOW in this case he is OMNIPOTENT to do anything to bring back Balance.
In the second link, You can see that Korvac has stopped the Tribunal since he is also Omnipotent i think! But again, Now that the Tribunal Has a case, he can do anything and is Second to TOAA at a Multiversal Scale
In the Second link, in the down panels. The Tribunal states that he is the guardian of the entire Multiverse. And since he can't stop the threat within the Universe, He will have to seal that Universe.
The Tribunal didn't lost! It doesn't matter how OMNIPOTENT Korvac is in that Universe he won't be able to do more. The Tribunal has SEALED that Reality from the Rest of the Universe. He has casted Judgement.
So, i don't see why you claim that the Tribunal lost this case?This is the first time i read those panels and I could already see my Theories gaining strenght.
When you read a comic you don't only need to read the lines but also understand the whole panorama and relate it with the Continuity. That's how you get to understand better the characters and their roles.
😉
Those are some funny mental gymnastics. If LT is second to TOAA while casting his judgment as you say how can Korvac resist his ultimate judgment? Is Korvac TOAA all of a sudden?
Originally posted by abhilegend
It's What If v1 32.Those are some funny mental gymnastics. If LT is second to TOAA while casting his judgment as you say how can Korvac resist his ultimate judgment? Is Korvac TOAA all of a sudden?
Ohh i see thanks. Sorry don't get angry but...Arent What If's non canon?
Either way, you didn't read my previous reply. The comic is explaining itself there. The Tribunal can't fight Korvac at its universe cause this has gain Omnipotence it seems. Still it doesn't mean that The Tribunal isn't over him or that has lost the case. The same comic explains that since the tribunal can't stop Korvac at his universe, that now he will SEAL Korvac's universe, ultimately bringing balance back to the Multiverse. So in that aspect Korvac has already lost.
Another instance similar to this is The Living Tribunal vs The Beyonder.
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This is a similar case in where the Living Tribunal has to seal or confine an Omnipotent being to a single universe. In this case, The Beyonder is forced to stay within its Universe.
We know that the LT is Omnipresence and therefore is able to be at ALL universes at the same time. So, in the Universe of the Beyonder LT is second to the Beyonder. As he himself says, the Beyonder is Omnipotent within its own universe and therefore there is nothing the Tribunal Can do against him (within its own universe). However the LT is still above the Beyonder at a Multiversal Scale and is still Second to TOAA.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
[B]I love good discussions man! 😂Okay. First of all, the way Universe 6 ended doesn't mean that all universes ended that way. For instance, as we are informed in the Ultimates, the first universe was the First Firmament. But it all ended when the Celestials fought the Aspirants tearing FF appart. This lead to the creation of the 2nd Multiverse (Eternity). Does this mean that the 6th Multiverse (Galactus Universe) ended that way? No. The samething applies here, the 7 Multiverse didn't end up as the 6th, in the same way as the 6th didn't end up like the 1st. So that statement of yours doesnt make much sense.
i already showed that the 7th ended unnaturally early... we saw the first was actively destroyed, so....that obviously isn't a natural ending either. the 6th ended without outside interference, hence the reason its ending was natural. 😕
Now, going back again. The same beyonders told that they were performing an "experiment". Now they never said what the experiment was. However we were let to assume that they wanted to destroy the Multiverse, but did it mean they were gonna leave it destroy? Not really. They could have created a New Multiverse out of the Older one, and therefore giving birth to the 8th Universe. So your point that without the Humans there could have been no 8th Multiverse isn't completely true.
there is no reason to guess at what the beyonders had in store because what i said is manifestly true. the beyonders weren't going to create anything because....they all died. if reed and the others didn't find a way to survive the multiverse wouldn't have been reborn as far as we know. guessing that it may have in some unfounded way doesn't change anything. we saw what happened and how it played out. no speculation needed.
Lets move to the Tribunal once again. Again there was NO CASE! You yourself have proven so! Either way, either am wrong or correct on the point that the Beyonders are a natural thing, still there is no way for a CASE to exist. As you yourself said, the Beyonders are not from the Multiverse. When we say beyonders, we are refering to beings of an Omniversal scale! The Living Tribunal is the keeper of cosmic balance in the Multiverse. Yeah! Lets say you are right and there was a cosmic imbalance; there was reallly none since a cosmic imbalance must happen within the same Multiverse. In this case, the Beyonders don't represent a cosmic imbalance since they don't belong to the Multiverse, therefore there was no Case for the LT to win. See? One way or another the Tribunal had no case.
beyonders>lt i agree. the multiverse died prematurely and lt couldn't stop it. why? because the beyonders were too strong. suggesting that the beyonders were toaa's erasers (utterly unfounded), or that toaa willed it to happen (also totally unfounded) is just...excuse making. it's no more insightful than saying the writers let lt lose. well...yeah, no kidding. it's a ludicrous statement and stance.
Now, I know the Beyonders have been around for quite long time. Now, the information we have on them is almost none! Throughout all the topic of the Beyonders we know more about the Cosmic Cubes, MM, The Beyonder, than of the race itself! The only time when we really got to see the Beyonders powers and abilites was at Secret Wars and Time Runs Out, and yet we know little. Won't you agree? When we include the Beyonders in any Topic we can do nothing but SPECULATE. For instance, Who Created Them? What do they want? Where do they live? etc. etc. etc. Its required for us to SPECULATE in this cases.
sure i have no problem with conjecture. but conjecture is not proof, and can't be presented as such. ever.
Yeah am speculating a lot, but speculation becomes THEORIES when there are strong arguments. Now, I could be wrong, or you could be. In this topic anyone could be wrong.
sure, but i'll side with what has been shown on panel over wide-reaching speculation every time. /shrug
