Josh, I'm going to say this, and pay careful attention ok?
The Night King, and the White Walkers can shatter common iron, and steel weapons, even those from Middle Earth. Nobody is saying anything different here.
But Sauron's Mace is not a common steel weapon. Heck, judging from what we see, even in the gif Quan has posted above, it's not even a rare magic weapon like the Witch King's sword.
It's a unique weapon to Sauron, it smashes through Numenorean and Elvish armor and weaponry like a cannon shell through a block of butter. No Walker, NK included has ever faced this kind of power before, and simply assuming that it would shatter like common pig iron weapons is.... stretching the definition far too much. That would be no different than assuming that the Night King could shatter Narsil or Anduril, or Glamdring for that matter... Could I say that the night King's ice swords would shatter against the Witch King because of his aura of protection against any weapon bar the Barrow swords? Or the fact that the NK is a man? Of course I can't do that.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Josh, I'm going to say this, and pay careful attention ok?The Night King, and the White Walkers can shatter common iron, and steel weapons, even those from Middle Earth. Nobody is saying anything different here.
But Sauron's Mace is not a common steel weapon. Heck, judging from what we see, even in the gif Quan has posted above, it's not even a rare magic weapon like the Witch King's sword.
It's a unique weapon to Sauron, it smashes through Numenorean and Elvish armor and weaponry like a cannon shell through a block of butter. No Walker, NK included has ever faced this kind of power before, and simply assuming that it would shatter like common pig iron weapons is.... stretching the definition far too much. That would be no different than assuming that the Night King could shatter Narsil or Anduril, or Glamdring for that matter... Could I say that the night King's ice swords would shatter against the Witch King because of his aura of protection against any weapon bar the Barrow swords? Or the fact that the NK is a man? Of course I can't do that.
Fine. The Night king is still good at shooting Ice Spears. That armor will get pierced.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Yeah. And how does sauron plan to kill the Night King?
Any number of ways.
#1: Using his magically empowered mace (He has not shown any resistances to magical weapons, and is quite vulnerable to comparatively magically null weapons like Dragonglass and Valyrian Steel.)
#2: Using his magically empowered sword (Ditto)
#3: Mindraping him (Sauron is a master of manipulating the darkest desires of anyone who confronts him. It's how the ring is able to affect so many people)
#4: Burning him alive from the inside out (He did this to Gil Gilad, a relatively powerful Elvish High King. And if fire is a weakness to the Walkers and their wights, then this would definitely suffice.)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I doubt that will harm him. It can make him fly a couple of meters. But Walkers have only been proven to be vulnerable to dragon glass and Valyrian Steel.
Again, you are relying on a no limit fallacy. These vs debates are not zero sum games, nor is Sauron some mook with an iron mace here.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Any number of ways.
#1: Using his magically empowered mace (He has not shown any resistances to magical weapons, and is quite vulnerable to comparatively magically null weapons like Dragonglass and Valyrian Steel.)
#2: Using his magically empowered sword (Ditto)
#3: Mindraping him (Sauron is a master of manipulating the darkest desires of anyone who confronts him. It's how the ring is able to affect so many people)
#4: Burning him alive from the inside out (He did this to Gil Gilad, a relatively powerful Elvish High King. And if fire is a weakness to the Walkers and their wights, then this would definitely suffice.)Again, you are relying on a no limit fallacy. These vs debates are not zero sum games, nor is Sauron some mook with an iron mace here.
No one is using fallacy but facts. The White Walkers have been shown BOTH in the Series as in the BOOKS to be immune to anything except DRAGON GLASS and VALYRIAN STEEL.
Unless SAURON possesses this the Night King is pratically invulnerable. Now Sauron might find Dragon Glass and use it, that makes more sense. But before he does that he will have a though fight.
1. The Mace won't affect him. The mace can be magical, but it's material isn't Valyrian Steel or Dragon Glass. It can be magical, but magic doesn't affect the Walkers. Not any other magic than that used in Valyrian Steel (that is what makes it valyrian steel after all, the specific enchantments casted by the Dragon Lords of Valyria). Am sure there are other swords enchanted by other enchantments in GoT, but that doesn't make it Valyrian Steel.
2. No sword that isn't made by Valyrian steel will affect the Walker. And am sure that it won't the Night King. The Night King isn't an ordinary Walker.
3. Am pretty much sure that the Night King is immune to telepathic attacks. Bran and other Green Seers as well as Witches could have tried the same method before throught history. Yet there hasn't been evidence that magic and telepathic attacks can affect the Walkers (They are no ordinary beings; in fact they are magical beings themselves)
4. I am sure Ice doesn't burn. The WW are made of thick COLD ice. I think that would be useless. The Knight King has been seen walking through fire before as if it was nothing.
Am not saying Sauron Can't Defeat the Night King. But it is no easy task and it will require more than Sauron's normal abilities.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No one is using fallacy but facts. The White Walkers are have been shown BOTH in the Series as in the BOOKS to be immune to anything except DRAGON GLASS and VALYRIAN STEEL.
Except that is the very definition of a no limit fallacy. Allow me to explain this to you - according to what you just said, even beings as powerful as... say, Galactus, who has the ability to manipulate matter at the molecular and even atomic level, would not be able to defeat the Night King with his power because.... it's not Valyrian Steel or Dragonglass? I mean, what? That is ludicrous. That is a complete departure from reality. Valyrian Steel's feats are good, but not THAT good. Nor has the Night King been tested against such a power. Never ever assume imperviousness against things that are specifically not other things without direct proof.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Unless SAURON possesses this the Night King is pratically invulnerable. Now Sauron might find Dragon Glass and use it, that makes more sense. But before he does that he will have a though fight.
Incorrect again. We only see the NK and the Walkers be impervious to common steel. They have not been tested against anything else. Certainly not by weapons and magics that outstrip even Valyrian Steel, which is loosely based on Demascus Steel.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1. The Mace won't affect him. The mace can be magical, but it's material isn't Valyrian Steel or Dragon Glass. It can be magical, but magic doesn't affect the Walkers. Not any other magic than that used in Valyrian Steel (that is what makes it valyrian steel after all, the specific enchantments casted by the Dragon Lords of Valyria). Am sure there are other swords enchanted by other enchantments in GoT, but that doesn't make it Valyrian Steel.
See above, you are making a leap of logic nobody else is willing to make. You are arguing this in circles without evidence.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
2. No sword that isn't made by Valyrian steel will affect the Walker. And am sure that it won't the Night King. The Night King isn't an ordinary Walker.
Same as above.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
3. Am pretty much sure that the Night King is immune to telepathic attacks. Bran and other Green Seers as well as Witches could have tried the same method before throught history. Yet there hasn't been evidence that magic and telepathic attacks can affect the Walkers (They are no ordinary beings; in fact they are magical beings themselves)
You're comparing Greenseers to a Maiar who's specialty is the domination over the will of others? Oooook? Sorry, I'm willing to say that Sauron's mental manipulation feats far outshine those of the greenseeers and witches prophecies.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
4. I am sure Ice doesn't burn. The WW are made of thick COLD ice. I think that would be useless. The Knight King has been seen walking through fire before as if it was nothing.
The Walkers and the Night King are not made of ice. They are made from flesh and blood men and Craster's Sons. They were turned into weapons of war by the COTF, but are still people, not ice elementals.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Am not saying Sauron Can't Defeat the Night King. But it is no easy task and it will require more than Sauron's normal abilities.
You have to prove this beyond "Teh ice and invulnerablez!" because your relying on a no limit fallacy in both scenarios, and incorrect on their actual makeup in a third.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Except that is the very definition of a no limit fallacy. Allow me to explain this to you - according to what you just said, even beings as powerful as... say, Galactus, who has the ability to manipulate matter at the molecular and even atomic level, would not be able to defeat the Night King with his power because.... it's not Valyrian Steel or Dragonglass? I mean, what? That is ludicrous. That is a complete departure from reality. Valyrian Steel's feats are good, but not THAT good. Nor has the Night King been tested against such a power. Never ever assume imperviousness against things that are specifically not other things without direct proof.
First of all you are being completly irrational here. We are talking about Sauron not a Cosmic entity. The levels of power are nowhere NEAR. As you said he has Matter and Molecular manipulation. OFCOURSE he could turn NK into dust!!!!
BUT NONE OF SAURON'S FEATS IS ENOUGH TO PROVE THAT COULD DEFEAT NK. You are the one exaggerating SAURON'S abilities.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Incorrect again. We only see the NK and the Walkers be impoervious to common steel. They have not been tested against anything else. Certainly not by weapons and magics that outstrip even Valyrian Steel, whic is loosely based on Demascus Steel.See above, you are making a leap of logic nobody else is willing to make. You are argung this in circles without evidence.
Same as above.[/B]
Well everyone is wrong! You all are ASSUMING/INVENTING/SPECULATING that the WW are vulnerable to Magic. Which IS NOT SUPPORTED! The COTF and the Green Seers possessed powerful magic, however in no book nor serie is it proven that MAGIC AFFECTS THEM. And the Night King is 2 or 3 as powerful as a Normal Walker. SO PLEASE STOP SPECULATING. BRING EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Your comparing Greenseers to a Maiar who's specialty is the domination over the will of others? Oooook? Sorry, I'm willing to say that Sauron's mental manipulation feats far outshine those of the greenseeers and witches prophecies.[/B]
No. Bran who is a greenseer has been seen to be able to WARG people. That is mind manipulation. AND AGAIN YOU ARE SPECULATING THAT. And Bran is young and hasn't master his abilities yet. There were 100s of Greenseers when the first WW came to Westeros. And none prove to be able to mind control WW. Again it's the NIGHT KING we are talking not a normal WW.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero The Walkers and the Night King are not made of ice. They are made from flesh and blood men and Craster's Sons. They were turned into weapons of war by the COTF, but are still people, not ice elementals.[/B]
They are. Their skin is no normal skin. Normal skin burns and gets pierced by Swords and arrows. According to the Show they were humans. The books take them as a separate specie from men. Also, it is ICE. They've been seen radiating cold from their skins. So it is either ice or just SUPER FROZEN Skin. Either way invulnerable to most materials.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero You have to prove this beyond "Teh ice and invulnerablez!" because your relying on a no limit fallacy in both scenarios, and incorrect on their actual makeup in a third. [/B]
Then you are relying on NON BACKED UP Information. You have shown no evidence to back up your claims. I HAVE.
I see two outcomes. Both begin with Sauron attempting to close the distance:
1. Night King incapacitates Sauron with a monster javelin ice spear throw.
2. Night King throws the spear, Sauron tanks it or it misses, Sauron whacks the unholy tar out of Night King, sending him back to north of the wall.
Between having a massive super mace and armor, a magical super ring, and being a demonic type being, I give the nod to Sauron.
Originally posted by John Murdoch
I see two outcomes. Both begin with Sauron attempting to close the distance:1. Night King incapacitates Sauron with a monster javelin ice spear throw.
2. Night King throws the spear, Sauron tanks it or it misses, Sauron whacks the unholy tar out of Night King, sending him back to north of the wall.Between having a massive super mace and armor, a magical super ring, and being a demonic type being, I give the nod to Sauron.
I could perfectly agree to that. HAHAHAHA.
The Night King will then have to get himself a Dragon to bring down the wall and fight Sauron again.